1 2012-03-23 00:02:18 <BlueMatt> that seems...wrong
  2 2012-03-23 00:03:52 <deoxxa> luke-jr: struct and class are pretty much identical
  3 2012-03-23 00:04:01 <deoxxa> struct has public members by default, class has private
  4 2012-03-23 00:04:04 <MagicalTux> a struct and a class is exactly the same thing internally
  5 2012-03-23 00:04:15 <deoxxa> (as long as we're talking about c++ here)
  6 2012-03-23 00:04:32 <BlueMatt> yea, makes sense, but from a linguistic pov, it still seems wrong
  7 2012-03-23 00:04:51 <BlueMatt> compu-linguistics :)
  8 2012-03-23 00:04:53 <deoxxa> class is really a specialisation of struct as far as i understand
  9 2012-03-23 00:05:34 <deoxxa> considering they evolved from c structs
 10 2012-03-23 00:10:13 <sipa> at least it's not java where enum elements are singleton classes
 11 2012-03-23 00:13:45 <luke-jr> deoxxa: by the spec, or by G++?
 12 2012-03-23 00:14:16 <deoxxa> well, conceptually
 13 2012-03-23 00:14:23 <forrestv> is there an official currency symbol for testnet bitcoins?
 14 2012-03-23 00:14:27 <deoxxa> c++ was originally just "c with other stuff"
 15 2012-03-23 00:14:46 <deoxxa> forrestv: that B with the line through it?
 16 2012-03-23 00:14:48 <luke-jr> forrestv: TNB??? :p
 17 2012-03-23 00:14:49 <sipa> forrestv: i've seen tnBTC
 18 2012-03-23 00:14:57 <forrestv> i've used tBTC in p2pool
 19 2012-03-23 00:15:11 <forrestv> hm
 20 2012-03-23 00:15:12 <luke-jr> forrestv: the long one is tnBTC
 21 2012-03-23 00:15:40 <deoxxa> ? is what i've seen
 22 2012-03-23 00:15:45 <deoxxa> but it's for the thai baht
 23 2012-03-23 00:15:52 <BlueMatt> forrestv: we dont even have one for mainnet...
 24 2012-03-23 00:15:59 <forrestv> BTC?
 25 2012-03-23 00:16:04 <sipa> BTC is pretty accepted
 26 2012-03-23 00:16:08 <BlueMatt> thats not a symbol, thats three letters...
 27 2012-03-23 00:16:15 <BlueMatt> but I suppose that would be as official as anything
 28 2012-03-23 00:16:31 <luke-jr> deoxxa: for BTC, B?? is pretty standard
 29 2012-03-23 00:16:36 <luke-jr> deoxxa: but he asked about testnet
 30 2012-03-23 00:16:39 <deoxxa> oh
 31 2012-03-23 00:16:40 <deoxxa> my bad
 32 2012-03-23 00:16:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: only you use that B
 33 2012-03-23 00:16:48 <deoxxa> i totally didn't even see that
 34 2012-03-23 00:16:54 <BlueMatt> Ive never seen anyone else use it...
 35 2012-03-23 00:16:57 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and favicons for virtually every site
 36 2012-03-23 00:17:13 <luke-jr> and Bitcoin-Qt
 37 2012-03-23 00:17:35 <BlueMatt> where in bitcoin-qt is that B
 38 2012-03-23 00:17:41 <forrestv> currency code, i guess. i was thinking about stock symbols, which are short uppercase abbreviations
 39 2012-03-23 00:17:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the icon
 40 2012-03-23 00:17:44 <BlueMatt> also, on what favicons?
 41 2012-03-23 00:17:54 <luke-jr> bitcoin.org for starters
 42 2012-03-23 00:17:58 <sipa> all bitcoin sites use the same favicon
 43 2012-03-23 00:18:03 <BlueMatt> the icon is a bit more generic B with a line, not the B with an offcenter line
 44 2012-03-23 00:18:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it's not offcenter.
 45 2012-03-23 00:18:19 <BlueMatt> B??
 46 2012-03-23 00:18:19 <luke-jr> it's a B with 2 lines through it
 47 2012-03-23 00:18:27 <BlueMatt> hmmm, well xchat kills it then
 48 2012-03-23 00:18:33 <luke-jr> or your font maybe
 49 2012-03-23 00:18:34 <BlueMatt> so does chrome...
 50 2012-03-23 00:18:41 <luke-jr> I agree we need better font support&
 51 2012-03-23 00:18:48 <sipa> if i zoom in enough, i indeed see two lines
 52 2012-03-23 00:18:56 <sipa> they don't go all the way through though
 53 2012-03-23 00:18:57 <BlueMatt> and it wont even paste in libreoffice...
 54 2012-03-23 00:19:16 <luke-jr> sipa: ?
 55 2012-03-23 00:19:42 <sipa> they pass the bottom and the center part of the B, but not the top
 56 2012-03-23 00:19:55 <luke-jr> sipa: that's a font thing
 57 2012-03-23 00:20:38 <sipa> possibly
 58 2012-03-23 00:20:58 <luke-jr> I'd make a TTF with a sane rendering, but I can't figure out how to do it in fontforge :/
 59 2012-03-23 00:27:17 <luke-jr> anyone want to help me debug this thing more?
 60 2012-03-23 00:27:58 <sipa> luke-jr: my android tablet shows your symbol as a normal B
 61 2012-03-23 00:28:26 <sipa> luke-jr: i'd just wait wumpus' thoughts.on it
 62 2012-03-23 00:29:25 <luke-jr> sipa: you should help me test by sending me lots of bitcoins
 63 2012-03-23 00:29:27 <luke-jr> <.<
 64 2012-03-23 00:31:48 <sipa> i'll gladly send you 10% of all bitcoins you send me
 65 2012-03-23 00:32:22 <luke-jr> just 10%? :<
 66 2012-03-23 00:32:43 <BlueMatt> Ill do the same, but 11%!
 67 2012-03-23 00:32:43 <sipa> ok, 10.3%
 68 2012-03-23 00:32:49 <sipa> woah
 69 2012-03-23 00:32:59 <sipa> altruistic BlueMatt
 70 2012-03-23 00:33:02 <luke-jr> make it 111% and we got a deal
 71 2012-03-23 00:33:17 <sipa> that's in binary?
 72 2012-03-23 00:33:23 <luke-jr> no
 73 2012-03-23 00:33:29 <luke-jr> tonal
 74 2012-03-23 00:33:32 <BlueMatt> Ill send you 111% if you give it to me no-interest and dont set a pay-back date
 75 2012-03-23 00:33:32 <luke-jr> duh
 76 2012-03-23 00:33:53 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: isn't that self-contradicting?
 77 2012-03-23 00:34:07 <BlueMatt> only if you read it that way
 78 2012-03-23 00:34:10 <sipa> luke-jr: is a tonal % a multiple of (decimal) 1/256?
 79 2012-03-23 00:34:31 <luke-jr> sipa: well, tonal doesn't really use %
 80 2012-03-23 00:34:37 <luke-jr> normally it'd just be 1.11 :p
 81 2012-03-23 00:35:39 <luke-jr> which I guess is decimal 106.64% <.<
 82 2012-03-23 00:37:15 <luke-jr> 1.11 binary would be 175% :D
 83 2012-03-23 00:38:10 <sipa> but 111% in binary is 0.07 decimal
 84 2012-03-23 00:38:33 <luke-jr> no?
 85 2012-03-23 00:38:37 <luke-jr> well
 86 2012-03-23 00:38:47 <luke-jr> if you mix it like that :p
 87 2012-03-23 00:39:39 <h4ckm3> hey dudes, I have a question: I have backed up all my wallets regularly and regularly I check them. However today when I loaded a backed up wallet file the balance show zero and it is not encrypted, the addresses that I generated are there but none of the transactions?
 88 2012-03-23 00:39:47 <h4ckm3> blockexplorer shows the correct balance for the address
 89 2012-03-23 00:40:49 <sipa> is your block chain caught up?
 90 2012-03-23 01:26:18 <bx_> Looking for developers familiar with bitcoin and php/js/mysql.. Picking up some devs for a project. Thanks a bunch. If you know css/design; even better! -- Thanks!
 91 2012-03-23 01:27:21 <andytoshi> i doubt you'll find people who like php or mysql here
 92 2012-03-23 01:28:09 <deoxxa> > starting new project
 93 2012-03-23 01:28:13 <deoxxa> > chooses php
 94 2012-03-23 01:28:18 <deoxxa> BZZZZZT
 95 2012-03-23 01:28:52 <deoxxa> urk, i'm not using php
 96 2012-03-23 01:29:13 <sipa> 3:28:52 < deoxxa> urk, i'm not using php   <--- makes it really sound like it's a drug
 97 2012-03-23 01:29:22 <BlueMatt> its not?
 98 2012-03-23 01:29:24 <Joric> facebook uses php
 99 2012-03-23 01:29:26 <sipa> did you buy it on silk road?
100 2012-03-23 01:29:32 <Joric> well, a better version of it
101 2012-03-23 01:29:43 <deoxxa> yea but i had it shipped to my own address so i'm not actually that anonymous
102 2012-03-23 01:29:44 <sipa> Joric: they wrote their own php->c compiler...
103 2012-03-23 01:30:22 <Joric> nasty
104 2012-03-23 01:30:34 <bx_> actually any language just pm me if you're interested
105 2012-03-23 01:30:34 <deoxxa> it's actually PHP to C++
106 2012-03-23 01:30:44 <andytoshi> i bet they aren't using actual php since they wrote their compiler
107 2012-03-23 01:30:46 <deoxxa> they have their own VM now as well
108 2012-03-23 01:30:56 <deoxxa> apparently it's horrid
109 2012-03-23 01:31:12 <sipa> they had this massive codebase in PHP, but it became too slow
110 2012-03-23 01:31:31 <sipa> so instead of rewriting it in a programming language, they decided to compile it to one ;)
111 2012-03-23 01:31:44 <deoxxa> heh
112 2012-03-23 01:31:49 <Joric> i used python/django lately mostly because of gae
113 2012-03-23 01:32:01 <Joric> should try ruby
114 2012-03-23 01:32:04 <deoxxa> i'm all about node.js lately
115 2012-03-23 01:32:32 <deoxxa> i find that i actually enjoy coding with node, instead of just enjoying the results
116 2012-03-23 01:32:44 <deoxxa> php used to be fun as well, but for some reason it's not anymore
117 2012-03-23 01:33:27 <andytoshi> php just starts to wear on you
118 2012-03-23 01:33:35 <andytoshi> the inflexibility and weird syntax
119 2012-03-23 01:33:49 <andytoshi> always having to look up the parameter order for everything
120 2012-03-23 01:34:20 <sipa> the only good thing about php is its large set of very inconsistent but extensive library, which you know will be available on any system
121 2012-03-23 01:34:48 <andytoshi> yeah, but python's got it bear there i think
122 2012-03-23 01:34:49 <andytoshi> beat*
123 2012-03-23 02:01:52 <andytoshi> ;;bc,blocks
124 2012-03-23 02:01:53 <gribble> 172430
125 2012-03-23 04:00:49 <jrmithdobbs> hrm, why is the mac build targeting 10.5 when 10.5 and 32bit builds aren't supported by newest qt sdk?
126 2012-03-23 04:01:50 <luke-jr> "As of Qt 4.7, Qt supports Mac OS X versions 10.4 and up."
127 2012-03-23 04:09:10 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: whats the volume like for 979?
128 2012-03-23 04:10:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: maybe 2 times per transaction at most
129 2012-03-23 04:10:45 <BlueMatt> per tx that is yours or per tx in a block?
130 2012-03-23 04:10:53 <luke-jr> basically after AddToWallet
131 2012-03-23 04:10:59 <luke-jr> tx that's yours
132 2012-03-23 04:11:10 <BlueMatt> oh, well thats a no-brainer then
133 2012-03-23 04:11:39 <BlueMatt> why the random block though?
134 2012-03-23 04:11:42 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 979 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/979>
135 2012-03-23 04:12:33 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: scope for the string
136 2012-03-23 04:12:42 <BlueMatt> again, why?
137 2012-03-23 04:12:48 <luke-jr> so it falls out of scope&
138 2012-03-23 04:12:58 <BlueMatt> I know what a block does, but why bother?
139 2012-03-23 04:13:14 <luke-jr> it isn't a bother, just automatic for me
140 2012-03-23 04:13:25 <luke-jr> debating it is a bother ;p
141 2012-03-23 04:13:26 <BlueMatt> let it fall out of scope at the end of the function so that useful work gets done before you spend time deallocating your string
142 2012-03-23 04:14:09 <luke-jr> if it needed optimization, I'd make it common outside the loop
143 2012-03-23 04:14:22 <luke-jr> but I doubt it does
144 2012-03-23 04:14:41 <BlueMatt> meh, whatever, I just wondered if it actually served a purpose
145 2012-03-23 04:24:45 <bx_> Looking for developers familiar with bitcoin and php/js/mysql.. Picking up some devs for a project. Thanks a bunch. If you know css/design; even better! -- Thanks!
146 2012-03-23 04:25:58 <BlueMatt> oh, please dont go on repeat...
147 2012-03-23 04:50:42 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
148 2012-03-23 04:50:43 <gribble> 172438
149 2012-03-23 04:50:57 <jrmithdobbs> 33 minutes?
150 2012-03-23 04:51:42 <deoxxa> bx_: i'll bite - what have you got in mind?
151 2012-03-23 11:53:04 <sipa> from v0.1.5 to v0.2.0: 35 commits
152 2012-03-23 11:53:14 <sipa> from v0.2.0 to v0.3.0: 47 commits
153 2012-03-23 11:53:26 <sipa> from v0.3.0 to v0.4.0: 639 commits
154 2012-03-23 11:53:35 <sipa> from v0.4.0 to v0.5.0: 454 commits
155 2012-03-23 11:53:48 <sipa> from v0.5.0 to HEAD: 278 commits
156 2012-03-23 11:54:38 <luke-jr> I'm not sure commits are more meaningful than LOC
157 2012-03-23 11:54:44 <luke-jr> especially since we're collapsing pullreqs
158 2012-03-23 11:55:36 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 980 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/980>
159 2012-03-23 13:22:45 <t7> can the blockchain be pruned or something
160 2012-03-23 13:23:02 <t7> everyone seems to not care about the fact its like 2 gig
161 2012-03-23 13:25:35 <sipa> most nodes can, but this hasn't been implemented yet
162 2012-03-23 13:31:16 <helo> maybe it's good to keep it big right now, and optimize things to be able to handle a huge and unruly blockchain
163 2012-03-23 13:33:27 <helo> i suppose it's not necessary to avoid implementing pruning in order to optimize for unruly chain size
164 2012-03-23 13:33:38 <sipa> how do you mean?
165 2012-03-23 13:34:10 <helo> which statement are you asking about?
166 2012-03-23 13:35:03 <sipa> oh, i missed a line; nevermind
167 2012-03-23 13:36:20 <helo> i guess with oss projects people won't be inclined to invest their time in things that don't seem immediately pressing, so maybe it is necessary :)
168 2012-03-23 13:37:08 <sipa> i'm not sure that is different for commercial projects :)
169 2012-03-23 13:37:45 <sipa> "we need to refactor this code, it's a mess!" - "Not now, there's a release deadline coming up"
170 2012-03-23 13:38:56 <freewil> i dont get all the complaints about the blockchain being 1gig
171 2012-03-23 13:39:20 <freewil> thats not that big and there are checkpoints available for download
172 2012-03-23 13:39:32 <t7> freewil: yeah but it cant grow forever :|
173 2012-03-23 13:39:34 <freewil> and the client has jsonrpc for creating thin clients
174 2012-03-23 13:39:46 <t7> unless it grows slower than boradband speed grows
175 2012-03-23 13:39:49 <t7> and ram
176 2012-03-23 13:40:16 <sipa> checkpoints have nothing to do with downloads, and downloading the blockchain without verifying is dangerous (you will not notice corruption, and could end up on a chain fork)
177 2012-03-23 13:40:17 <freewil> it doesnt need to grow bigger than broadband speed
178 2012-03-23 13:40:31 <freewil> you only need to download the whole thing once
179 2012-03-23 13:40:37 <sipa> and jsonrpc is currently not really usable for creating thin clients
180 2012-03-23 13:40:49 <freewil> why not?
181 2012-03-23 13:40:51 <t7> freewil: yeah but it will get to 20 gig
182 2012-03-23 13:41:05 <t7> then joe avaerage aint gonna wait 3 days to download the block chain
183 2012-03-23 13:41:24 <sipa> joe average shouldn't be running a full node then
184 2012-03-23 13:42:19 <t7> well the number of full nodes will go down
185 2012-03-23 13:42:22 <t7> panic!
186 2012-03-23 13:42:34 <sipa> the number of full nodes, probably
187 2012-03-23 13:44:52 <t7> im gonna invent a new crypto currency with a block block instead of a block chain
188 2012-03-23 13:44:56 <t7> fixed size
189 2012-03-23 13:45:04 <t7> and fixed number of addresses
190 2012-03-23 13:45:16 <t7> blob block*
191 2012-03-23 13:45:27 <t7> block blob ?
192 2012-03-23 13:46:58 <luke-jr> ie, prune a random 50%, but provide the other 50% to other nodes
193 2012-03-23 13:48:43 <sipa> not with the current protocol
194 2012-03-23 13:49:09 <sipa> but that's not too hard to change if necessary
195 2012-03-23 13:49:21 <t7> who thought it would be a good idea to accept TXs sent to invalid addresses?
196 2012-03-23 13:49:56 <luke-jr> t7: it's impossible to know an address is invalid
197 2012-03-23 13:50:01 <luke-jr> unless its basic form is wrong
198 2012-03-23 13:50:18 <sipa> invalid != non-existing
199 2012-03-23 13:51:06 <luke-jr> well, it's impossible to accept tx to truly invalid addresses :p
200 2012-03-23 13:51:42 <t7> Can someone talk me through how transactions are sent (signed by the owner of the coin)
201 2012-03-23 13:52:03 <sipa> and regarding the ability to send to non-existing addresses: the basic probablem is that we consider them to be addresses rather than txout script templates
202 2012-03-23 13:52:21 <sipa> imho
203 2012-03-23 13:52:22 <t7> bob owns a coin, he send it to alice by setting the public address to alice's address (?) and signing with his private key
204 2012-03-23 13:52:32 <sipa> t7: that's it, yes
205 2012-03-23 13:52:38 <sipa> a bit more complex than that though
206 2012-03-23 13:52:53 <t7> how can alice verify that it has been signed by bob
207 2012-03-23 13:53:04 <sipa> ok, let me go into a bit more detail
208 2012-03-23 13:53:08 <t7> the hash of the new coin = something special?
209 2012-03-23 13:54:09 <sipa> a coin is a transaction output, it is identified by the hash of the transaction that created it + the number of the output (if transaction X has 3 outputs, those outputs are called X:0, X:1 and X:2)
210 2012-03-23 13:54:39 <luke-jr> t7: ever hear of public key cryptography?
211 2012-03-23 13:55:11 <sipa> every transaction output carries a small script. when consuming a coin, you provide an input for that script that will make it evaluate to true
212 2012-03-23 13:55:53 <sipa> if you have a typical send-to-address transaction, the script says: input a signature and a pubkey, the hash of the pubkey must be <address>, and the signature must be valid for this message with that pubkey
213 2012-03-23 13:55:54 <helo> mmmm coins
214 2012-03-23 13:56:23 <sipa> when spending it, you provide you own pubkey + a signature on the spending transaction created by that pubkey
215 2012-03-23 13:57:55 <t7> i need to write this down
216 2012-03-23 13:58:27 <sipa> t7: so a full transaction is something that says: a) consume these previous coins (and here are the inputs for their scripts, proving that i own them) b) create these new coins (each with a particular value, and a script)
217 2012-03-23 14:00:08 <t7> what do inputs look like?
218 2012-03-23 14:00:10 <t7> (for scripts)
219 2012-03-23 15:08:04 <jaydhx> how do i fix this vulnerability? download bitcoin again?
220 2012-03-23 15:12:22 <sipa> which?
221 2012-03-23 15:13:56 <jaydhx> my friend said hacker can steal all my bitcoin
222 2012-03-23 15:40:01 <helo> anything is possible
223 2012-03-23 15:41:06 <helo> thief can steal my money, bomb can explode my house
224 2012-03-23 15:42:58 <helo> there is a lot you can do to make it harder for hacker to steal all your bitcoin: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_Security_Dos_and_Don%27ts_(Windows)
225 2012-03-23 15:45:54 <helo> bah, shouldn't have turned off parts...
226 2012-03-23 18:59:41 <vegard> accepted alert 1011, AppliesToMe()=1
227 2012-03-23 18:59:45 <vegard> what's that?
228 2012-03-23 19:00:18 <vegard> just before: version message: version 50301, blocks=26000
229 2012-03-23 19:00:19 <BlueMatt> you got the alert for bitcoin.org/critfix
230 2012-03-23 19:00:28 <vegard> is it telling me to upgrade?
231 2012-03-23 19:00:33 <BlueMatt> yea
232 2012-03-23 19:01:15 <vegard> thanks.
233 2012-03-23 19:01:29 <vegard> am I being punished by the network for using this version?
234 2012-03-23 19:01:53 <vegard> oooh. now I realised getinfo also shows this:     "errors" : "URGENT: security fix for Bitcoin-Qt on Windows: http://bitcoin.org/critfix"
235 2012-03-23 19:05:13 <BlueMatt> you arent being punished, its just a notification
236 2012-03-23 19:05:23 <specular> i recently sent myself some funds from MtGox and its been 30 minutes with it sitll at 0/unconfirmed, what should i do?
237 2012-03-23 19:05:41 <vegard> specular: wait
238 2012-03-23 19:05:47 <specular> vegard: how long?
239 2012-03-23 19:05:51 <BlueMatt> specular: wait for eligius to get a block
240 2012-03-23 19:05:58 <BlueMatt> it should get confirmed by then (if not before)
241 2012-03-23 19:05:58 <specular> oh ok
242 2012-03-23 19:06:26 <vegard> once it gets into a block, it will get more confirms at a rate of approximately 6 per hour
243 2012-03-23 19:42:16 <specular> yay got a confirm, thanks guys
244 2012-03-23 19:45:43 <[Tycho]> http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/413394_10150762950471804_622196803_11679184_619632210_o.jpg
245 2012-03-23 19:48:25 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: oh, wow that is amazing
246 2012-03-23 19:48:39 <BlueMatt> (though not at all surprising)
247 2012-03-23 19:49:00 <[Tycho]> :)
248 2012-03-23 20:00:42 <vegard> ERROR: ConnectInputs() : 3263bb990c mapTransactions prev not found 814674b4ce
249 2012-03-23 20:00:45 <vegard> ERROR: ConnectInputs() : b7ad2e6e23 mapTransactions prev not found bac1131a39
250 2012-03-23 20:00:52 <vegard> is this normal?
251 2012-03-23 20:01:38 <vegard> there was a whole sequence of them
252 2012-03-23 20:02:06 <BlueMatt> do you have a full chain?
253 2012-03-23 20:02:09 <vegard> yes.
254 2012-03-23 20:02:14 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,blocks
255 2012-03-23 20:02:28 <vegard> "blocks" : 172522,
256 2012-03-23 20:02:50 <BlueMatt> how lomg has your node been online?
257 2012-03-23 20:02:57 <vegard> 247 days
258 2012-03-23 20:03:30 <BlueMatt> you havent restarted bitcoind?
259 2012-03-23 20:03:32 <vegard> nope
260 2012-03-23 20:03:53 <vegard> er, well, I have in those 247 days, but not recently
261 2012-03-23 20:04:33 <vegard> the last time I started bitcoind was 31 days ago
262 2012-03-23 20:05:35 <BlueMatt> well maybe someone is just making fake txes...pretty odd, but...
263 2012-03-23 20:05:54 <vegard> does the debug log contain any sensitive data? (I guess not)
264 2012-03-23 20:06:11 <BlueMatt> notish
265 2012-03-23 20:06:29 <BlueMatt> it says which txes are yours
266 2012-03-23 20:06:46 <vegard> http://pastebin.com/tESJXtU8
267 2012-03-23 20:08:25 <BlueMatt> you got the alert for bitcoin.org/critfix
268 2012-03-23 20:08:42 <vegard> now I got this: ERROR: ConnectInputs() : e4c0a28119 mapTransactions prev not found c56365a361
269 2012-03-23 20:08:43 <BlueMatt> oops...
270 2012-03-23 20:09:15 <BlueMatt> didnt mean to resend that, cleaning my keyboard
271 2012-03-23 20:10:58 <makomk> I think it may also be possible for you to receive transactions out of order.
272 2012-03-23 20:12:18 <vegard> aha
273 2012-03-23 20:12:26 <BlueMatt> that should be pretty rare unless someone is making txes one after another without even 1 confirmation (though possible_
274 2012-03-23 20:12:27 <BlueMatt> )
275 2012-03-23 20:13:35 <BlueMatt> )
276 2012-03-23 20:18:40 <pjwaffle> When I start bitcoin, it crashes with some visual c++ terminated runtime error
277 2012-03-23 20:19:08 <BlueMatt> care to paste it?
278 2012-03-23 20:19:18 <pjwaffle> Is there a more detailed log file?
279 2012-03-23 20:19:45 <BlueMatt> it wont have runtime errors...
280 2012-03-23 20:20:16 <pjwaffle> http://pastebin.com/GcGB6sSv
281 2012-03-23 20:20:21 <pjwaffle> That might be relevant
282 2012-03-23 20:20:33 <pjwaffle> That kept coming up later in the log, probably after I kept trying to start it
283 2012-03-23 20:20:45 <BlueMatt> but there may be something at the end of debug.loh
284 2012-03-23 20:21:13 <pjwaffle> There's 10 BTC at stake D:
285 2012-03-23 20:21:47 <vegard> your wallet is probably still safe, but you might consider backing it up
286 2012-03-23 20:21:52 <pjwaffle> Ok
287 2012-03-23 20:22:05 <pjwaffle> Well I haven't recieved it
288 2012-03-23 20:22:18 <pjwaffle> Because the chain basically froze downloading at 77%
289 2012-03-23 20:22:24 <pjwaffle> Then I restarted it but it crashed
290 2012-03-23 20:22:50 <pjwaffle> I mean I know I recieved it
291 2012-03-23 20:22:57 <pjwaffle> Or rather, it was sent to me
292 2012-03-23 20:23:04 <pjwaffle> But is it in the wallet.dat?
293 2012-03-23 20:23:39 <vegard> your wallet.dat constains your secret keys, regardless of the status of the blockchain
294 2012-03-23 20:23:56 <vegard> assuming this wallet is the one you used to generate the address that the 10 btc were sent to
295 2012-03-23 20:24:08 <pjwaffle> ok good
296 2012-03-23 20:24:09 <pjwaffle> thanks
297 2012-03-23 20:25:10 <pjwaffle> so now what?
298 2012-03-23 20:26:22 <vegard> I'd try moving the blkindex.dat and blk*.dat files somewhere else and get the chain again
299 2012-03-23 20:26:29 <pjwaffle> ok
300 2012-03-23 20:27:04 <pjwaffle> thanks
301 2012-03-23 20:27:09 <pjwaffle> works now
302 2012-03-23 20:27:27 <pjwaffle> I think my recieving address was preserved as well :D
303 2012-03-23 20:27:40 <vegard> maybe the devs would like to have a look at those files, I dunno
304 2012-03-23 21:41:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: i probably need to write the exact policy enfotced by -upgradewallet somewhere.
305 2012-03-23 21:42:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: probably
306 2012-03-23 21:43:27 <sipa> Now, the form without parameter is easy, and the other form is considered expert usage.
307 2012-03-23 21:48:32 <luke-jr> is there a patch to not relay jerk blocks out there?
308 2012-03-23 21:48:36 <luke-jr> sick of being accused of it
309 2012-03-23 21:49:04 <copumpkin> are jerk blocks the 1-txn ones?
310 2012-03-23 21:49:17 <sipa> wait until discouraging is merged, and add a discouragement rule
311 2012-03-23 21:49:19 <copumpkin> luke-jr: did you ever track down that bug?
312 2012-03-23 21:49:27 <luke-jr> copumpkin: which one?
313 2012-03-23 21:49:37 <copumpkin> the one I was flooding you yesterday trying to find
314 2012-03-23 21:49:41 <luke-jr> sipa: discourage isn't viable as-is. it needs a 0th stage.
315 2012-03-23 21:49:56 <luke-jr> copumpkin: nope 9
316 2012-03-23 21:50:00 <copumpkin> aw
317 2012-03-23 21:53:42 <sipa> BlueMatt: it's easy actually: -upgradewallet forces upgrade to latest versio, -upgradewallet=version allows (but doesn't force) upgrade up to that version, unless that cannot be satisfied by an explicit action. The default corresponds to -upgradewallet=someoldversion
318 2012-03-23 21:55:09 <sipa> maybe we need a -longhelp with a paragraph of help text per option instead of a single line
319 2012-03-23 21:55:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: unless you run with -upgradewallet=50000 and encrypt your wallet, then you get a 0.6 wallet?
320 2012-03-23 21:58:30 <sipa> yes
321 2012-03-23 21:58:52 <sipa> well, anything less than 60000
322 2012-03-23 21:59:29 <BlueMatt> seems like it shouldnt...
323 2012-03-23 22:00:39 <sipa> gavin liked it that way: upgrade to latest and greatest as soon as something happens that implies old versions will be broken anyway
324 2012-03-23 22:01:09 <BlueMatt> well, fine by me, not a big deal either way
325 2012-03-23 22:01:12 <sipa> feel free to comment, it's easy to change
326 2012-03-23 22:17:09 <luke-jr> sipa: -help=<option> ?
327 2012-03-23 22:18:18 <splatster> luke-jr: -help has an input?
328 2012-03-23 22:18:24 <luke-jr> splatster: it could
329 2012-03-23 22:19:32 <splatster> I have finally found a use for unused blank CDs/DVDs.  wallet.dat backups
330 2012-03-23 22:20:03 <BlueMatt> splatster: you know CDs/DVDs have terrible shelf-life?
331 2012-03-23 22:20:15 <splatster> Really?
332 2012-03-23 22:20:23 <BlueMatt> compared to other media, yea
333 2012-03-23 22:20:25 <splatster> I don't use them as sole backups.
334 2012-03-23 22:20:45 <BlueMatt> unless you pay out the node for the long-term 1000 year backup CDs/DVDs
335 2012-03-23 22:20:53 <BlueMatt> of which there are like 2 mfgs iirc
336 2012-03-23 22:20:56 <BlueMatt> s/node/nose/
337 2012-03-23 22:21:45 <splatster> Multiple USBs. Stored in Dropbox in the most secure way possible. Etc.
338 2012-03-23 22:21:55 <BlueMatt> dropbox?
339 2012-03-23 22:22:02 <BlueMatt> have you seen what happened to megaupload?
340 2012-03-23 22:22:12 <BlueMatt> usb's also dont have a great shelf-life tbh
341 2012-03-23 22:22:24 <BlueMatt> in fact, there are very few good shelf-life storage mediums
342 2012-03-23 22:22:27 <BlueMatt> tape drives
343 2012-03-23 22:22:36 <BlueMatt> expensive backup cds/dvds
344 2012-03-23 22:22:51 <splatster> Next you'll tell me that my paper wallets have terrible shelf life.  What else should I do?
345 2012-03-23 22:23:07 <BlueMatt> best bet: encrypt your backs, claim the password is easy to guess and disseminate, everyone will be passing your wallet backup around trying to crack it ;)
346 2012-03-23 22:23:17 <BlueMatt> paper is actually probably the best bet
347 2012-03-23 22:23:22 <BlueMatt> given a good paper+printer
348 2012-03-23 22:23:25 <BlueMatt> s/printer/ink/
349 2012-03-23 22:23:33 <BlueMatt> well, unless you have a fire
350 2012-03-23 22:23:42 <BlueMatt> so I guess that would be good paper+ink+fire-proof safe
351 2012-03-23 22:23:52 <BlueMatt> ^ how I would do it if I cared
352 2012-03-23 22:24:21 <BlueMatt> instead I have copies of my wallet on hard drives everywhere in folders I forgot I had, mostly unencrypted <-- anyone who stole my laptop could take all my coins...
353 2012-03-23 22:24:30 <h4ckm3> what about cloud storage + bcrypt?
354 2012-03-23 22:24:37 <splatster> Well, what is your backup procedure.  I want to make sure my GLBSE fund's wallet is as secure as possible -before- we launch.
355 2012-03-23 22:24:52 <BlueMatt> h4ckm3: again, see: megaupload
356 2012-03-23 22:25:01 <BlueMatt> cloud storage is a good idea, but not as the only backup
357 2012-03-23 22:25:09 <BlueMatt> maybe like 10 providers would be nice, and wouldnt be hard to do
358 2012-03-23 22:25:17 <BlueMatt> splatster: I would go det wallet + paper backup
359 2012-03-23 22:25:19 <h4ckm3> like in your gmail
360 2012-03-23 22:25:24 <BlueMatt> h4ckm3: thats one
361 2012-03-23 22:25:42 <BlueMatt> splatster: that also offers some cool features like making new addresses without having the info to spend them on the server
362 2012-03-23 22:25:43 <h4ckm3> or paperwallet in secure note on lastpass?
363 2012-03-23 22:25:56 <deoxxa> > encrypt your backs, claim the password is easy to guess and disseminate, everyone will be passing your wallet backup around trying to crack it
364 2012-03-23 22:25:57 <deoxxa> genius
365 2012-03-23 22:26:01 <h4ckm3> +pgp
366 2012-03-23 22:26:11 <h4ckm3> ;)
367 2012-03-23 22:26:33 <splatster> det wallet?
368 2012-03-23 22:26:42 <BlueMatt> h4ckm3: I dont trust lastpass, as much as the site itself is secure, a highly motivated attack could make a phishing version of lastpass and sslstrip your connection, stealing all your coins...
369 2012-03-23 22:27:05 <BlueMatt> splatster: deterministic wallets, type-2 from this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
370 2012-03-23 22:27:51 <BlueMatt> sipa has an implementation in the satoshi client and there is a compatible (iirc) one in armory, but neither are really finalized, so I would wait a while before using either
371 2012-03-23 22:28:23 <splatster> How secure is a 4096 RSA key?
372 2012-03-23 22:28:38 <luke-jr> splatster: secure enough that it's used for all the bitcoin release signing
373 2012-03-23 22:30:24 <splatster> Of course, I could send smickles the wallet so both of our backup methods would have to fail in order for the fund's bitcoins to truly be lost + most of the time the capital will be with some fixed-income bitcoin security.
374 2012-03-23 22:30:32 <luke-jr> anyone want to review? http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/61b6ec4c1119746d096d0071d498763595c54c4b
375 2012-03-23 22:30:40 <BlueMatt> splatster: "have fun trying to crack one before the universe ends" secure
376 2012-03-23 22:31:32 <splatster> BlueMatt: But if I lose the private key for my RSA key, then my wallet is equally fucked, but the probability of both happening to be lost is so low, I think it will be safe.
377 2012-03-23 22:32:11 <BlueMatt> splatster: if you want to use released code (which I would obv highly suggest) I would go with a bitcoin-encrypted wallet, generate a ridiculously large keypool (depends on what kind of volume you need, but keep an eye on the keypool), then manually gpg or otherwise encrypt the wallet on top of the bitcoin encryption, and email to a few people, put it up on dropbox+wuala+...+...
378 2012-03-23 22:32:48 <BlueMatt> I would backup your rsa key's privkey (obv encrypted, using a different pass than the one used for your wallet) with the wallet
379 2012-03-23 22:33:00 <splatster> ok, that's what I'll do.
380 2012-03-23 22:33:09 <BlueMatt> and obv make all the backup methods run in a nicely pacakged script :)
381 2012-03-23 22:34:44 <BlueMatt> oh, and make sure the bitcoin node that you use to send coins a. does not run an rpc server, unless it only listens on 127.0.0.1, b. connects to the bitcoin network through another server who's sole purpose in life is to run a bitcoin node between the internet and your node and c. to send coins, have the server put a list of to-be-sent coins on a flash drive and sneakernet it to your coin-holding node
382 2012-03-23 22:35:16 <BlueMatt> ^ what I would do if I had a $10k+ wallet
383 2012-03-23 22:36:18 <BlueMatt> sadly, that means payouts only happen when you sneakernet, but if you did that once when you come into work and once before leaving, it would be fairly reasonable
384 2012-03-23 22:36:40 <BlueMatt> or maybe have a large-holder and a small holder and scripts to move coins back and forth when the small-holders gets too low/high
385 2012-03-23 22:36:49 <BlueMatt> that way atleast you minimize your risk...
386 2012-03-23 22:37:16 <splatster> BlueMatt: At todays prices, would definitely be handling several thousand $
387 2012-03-23 22:37:44 <BlueMatt> splatster: how often does the server pay people, ie would they be willing to wait 12+hours to get their payouts?
388 2012-03-23 22:38:26 <splatster> BlueMatt: TBH, the majority of the time, coins will be with the institutions the fund will be investing in.
389 2012-03-23 22:38:46 <splatster> So I'm not sure I need to go through all that.
390 2012-03-23 22:38:55 <BlueMatt> if yes: go with method one and sneaker-net the list of payouts every day.  if no: go with method 2 and have two nodes and only manually send from the high-holder
391 2012-03-23 22:39:26 <BlueMatt> splatster: if you move large amounts of coin, I would really suggest it...
392 2012-03-23 22:40:11 <splatster> BlueMatt: define "large amounts"  100 BTC? 200 BTC? 500 BTC?
393 2012-03-23 22:40:36 <BlueMatt> large amounts depends on how much risk you are willing to take
394 2012-03-23 22:41:12 <BlueMatt> a. are you insured b. how much are you willing to lose c. how much do you think attackers will go after you (not script kiddies, actual attackers)
395 2012-03-23 22:42:25 <BlueMatt> honestly, none of this, even though it may seem complicated, would take more than a day of work to set up, so its not /that/ bad
396 2012-03-23 22:44:21 <splatster> BlueMatt: I really check my machine for malware so often, and I am relatively tech savy, I don't download stuff from BT on this machine, etc. that I think it's safe.
397 2012-03-23 22:44:26 <BlueMatt> and, at the end of the day, you are dealing with money/financial software.  this is the kind of setup any semi-reasonable bank would have and is required by pci (not that pci has really ever stopped incompetence, but it does provide a good basic, anyone should be doing this)
398 2012-03-23 22:44:37 <splatster> hmmm
399 2012-03-23 22:44:55 <BlueMatt> splatster: wait, you are gonna be running a large holding wallet on a machine which isnt dedicated to just running a bitcoin node?
400 2012-03-23 22:45:06 <BlueMatt> that should be the absolute minimum any bitcoin-based website should do
401 2012-03-23 22:45:15 <splatster> okay
402 2012-03-23 22:45:32 <BlueMatt> even if you dont do fancy sneakernetting or whatever, at least separate the bitcoin node
403 2012-03-23 22:45:48 <BlueMatt> (and have a sanity-checking proxy infront of your rpc interface)
404 2012-03-23 22:46:11 <splatster> So I have to sign all TXs on an offline machine, setup bitcoind on a separate server, and relay those TXs to that server manually.
405 2012-03-23 22:46:21 <BlueMatt> (ie is this spending an unreasonable amount of coin, have I gotten too many requests over the past n seconds...)
406 2012-03-23 22:46:35 <BlueMatt> splatster: dont have to, that is what I would do if you have a lot of coin
407 2012-03-23 22:46:48 <BlueMatt> splatster: but you do pretty much have to run the bitcoin node which holds the coin on its own server
408 2012-03-23 22:47:07 <BlueMatt> or on a highly-locked-down webserver (though I really wouldnt recommend that one)
409 2012-03-23 22:48:36 <splatster> Would this be a bad thing to do: use -this- machine to boot up to an offline copy of OS X with a static blockchain, make the TXs there, put them on a USB, boot up on to my online main copy of OS X, and then relay those TXs?
410 2012-03-23 22:49:03 <BlueMatt> not at all, iirc that is what gavin (used to) do with his coins
411 2012-03-23 22:49:07 <BlueMatt> and is a pretty good system
412 2012-03-23 22:51:10 <BlueMatt> I would copy the chain+wallet over together though
413 2012-03-23 22:51:38 <BlueMatt> ie just keep a flash drive with your datadir and move that back and forth
414 2012-03-23 22:57:03 <splatster> What's the proper way to get a TX from bitcoind and copy it to another copy of bitcoind on a diff machine and have the second copy relay the TX.
415 2012-03-23 22:57:09 <splatster> s/./?/
416 2012-03-23 22:57:52 <luke-jr> splatster: not supported.
417 2012-03-23 22:58:36 <splatster> Okay so then how could I do the procedure I described above? (have one machine create/sign the TX and have a different one relay it)
418 2012-03-23 22:59:14 <luke-jr> write your own client
419 2012-03-23 22:59:16 <luke-jr> or patch for bitcoind
420 2012-03-23 22:59:18 <kinlo> you could try limiting the bitcoind so it only has one single connection to the other client
421 2012-03-23 22:59:31 <kinlo> then all traffic goes trough the other bitcoin node
422 2012-03-23 23:00:06 <splatster> luke-r: is the -connect option a good way of doing that?
423 2012-03-23 23:00:19 <splatster> -connect=<ip>
424 2012-03-23 23:02:04 <splatster> Anyone?
425 2012-03-23 23:02:23 <splatster> luke-jr: ^
426 2012-03-23 23:08:57 <BlueMatt> Splatster or what i said and just copy your datadir over
427 2012-03-23 23:10:16 <BlueMatt> I would never connect machine b to the internet (an old beige box or smth) and use that machine to decrypt your wallet/send coins)
428 2012-03-23 23:11:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: armory and my patch both implement a fully functional type-2 det wallet
429 2012-03-23 23:12:30 <sipa> but after some discussions we agreed there are better schemes, and etotheipi will probably switch armory to the format that gets included in mainline
430 2012-03-23 23:12:46 <BlueMatt> sipa nice, though i prefer to wait until merge before recommending it ;)
431 2012-03-23 23:12:51 <sipa> duh
432 2012-03-23 23:12:54 <BlueMatt> (No offense)
433 2012-03-23 23:13:52 <sipa> of course; i was just commenting on your explanation, i didn't to imply that someone should use a patch i don't even maintain
434 2012-03-23 23:13:57 <sipa> mean
435 2012-03-23 23:15:21 <BlueMatt> Oh, i thought i explained that right...
436 2012-03-23 23:15:38 <BlueMatt> And i dont feel like goin back to my computer to check logs...
437 2012-03-23 23:16:20 <sipa> no worries