1 2012-06-01 04:47:31 <gmaxwell> The drm in this is an astonishing waste of effort, http://www.tricone-mining.com/faq.html
  2 2012-06-01 04:47:38 <gmaxwell> It makes me sad.
  3 2012-06-01 04:48:36 <gmaxwell> I'm glad its not bad for bitcoin like some other crazy things people have floated in relation to mining hardware. but geesh.
  4 2012-06-01 04:58:21 <JFK911> t l d r looks like a scam to me
  5 2012-06-01 05:02:16 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: its not
  6 2012-06-01 05:02:28 <Diablo-D3> he gives you the miner and the bitstream for free
  7 2012-06-01 05:02:42 <Diablo-D3> all it does is shaves a little off the top
  8 2012-06-01 05:03:19 <JFK911> see if he reduced that to "get free miner and get 80% of the btc" that is 9 words
  9 2012-06-01 05:03:32 <weex> it's 20%?
 10 2012-06-01 05:03:43 <JFK911> i didn't read through all the babble to find out
 11 2012-06-01 05:03:49 <JFK911> i saw "signcrypted" and hit the x
 12 2012-06-01 05:04:05 <Diablo-D3> 20%? no.
 13 2012-06-01 05:04:15 <Diablo-D3> whatever 270/258 is
 14 2012-06-01 05:04:24 <Diablo-D3> 5%?
 15 2012-06-01 05:04:26 <Diablo-D3> w/e
 16 2012-06-01 05:04:35 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: heres the big part
 17 2012-06-01 05:04:38 <JFK911> 258/270 is 95%
 18 2012-06-01 05:04:46 <Diablo-D3> I can take his miner
 19 2012-06-01 05:04:51 <Diablo-D3> and hack it to not send him the 5%.
 20 2012-06-01 05:05:06 <Diablo-D3> so I get 270 mh on a chip that does 200.
 21 2012-06-01 05:05:22 <JFK911> i think i could take his miner and properly power it and load my own code onto it
 22 2012-06-01 05:06:40 <Diablo-D3> power what?
 23 2012-06-01 05:06:44 <Diablo-D3> its a piece of software.
 24 2012-06-01 05:07:00 <JFK911> Xilinx's tools predict that it should achieve 315MH/s; however we have not yet encountered a board that can supply enough power to reach this figure. Typical performance is 270MH/s per chip.
 25 2012-06-01 05:07:14 <JFK911> thats like one of three sentences i read
 26 2012-06-01 05:09:36 <Diablo-D3> xilinix's tools are full of shit
 27 2012-06-01 05:09:45 <Diablo-D3> it predicted like 250 on the existing streams
 28 2012-06-01 05:10:47 <Diablo-D3> OH MAN
 29 2012-06-01 05:10:53 <Diablo-D3> Is this like Butterfly Labs' u201cBuyback Guaranteeu201d?
 30 2012-06-01 05:15:04 <JFK911> ive found logic simulations to be timing-accurate
 31 2012-06-01 05:15:24 <JFK911> of course i havent tried xilinx
 32 2012-06-01 05:16:14 <JFK911> but i have aldec's simulator
 33 2012-06-01 05:23:50 <Diablo-D3> stil
 34 2012-06-01 05:23:56 <Diablo-D3> it all depends what BFL does now
 35 2012-06-01 05:24:39 <Diablo-D3> because 270 mh is like
 36 2012-06-01 05:24:47 <Diablo-D3> where did I put that chart
 37 2012-06-01 05:26:52 <Diablo-D3> okay so
 38 2012-06-01 05:27:28 <Diablo-D3> okay lets say cairnsmore1s sell for $1000 at full price
 39 2012-06-01 05:27:36 <Diablo-D3> since the $640 was just a pre-order price and thats gone
 40 2012-06-01 05:27:51 <Diablo-D3> thats 1080 mhash for 4 spartan 6s
 41 2012-06-01 05:28:32 <Diablo-D3> thats $1/mh on both a cairnsmore1 and a lancelot (2 spartan 6 for $500)
 42 2012-06-01 05:29:01 <Diablo-D3> err
 43 2012-06-01 05:29:03 <Diablo-D3> 1 mh/$
 44 2012-06-01 05:29:08 <Diablo-D3> and 28nm could beat 2 mh/$
 45 2012-06-01 05:57:33 <MC1984> you guys added a blocks remaining thing in the progress bar, nice
 46 2012-06-01 05:57:45 <MC1984> the text should probably be black though
 47 2012-06-01 05:57:54 <MC1984> white on neon green is a bit hard
 48 2012-06-01 05:58:12 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: no
 49 2012-06-01 05:58:15 <Diablo-D3> thats the qt theme
 50 2012-06-01 05:58:17 <Diablo-D3> change yours.
 51 2012-06-01 05:58:24 <Diablo-D3> mine is happily white on dark blue.
 52 2012-06-01 05:58:37 <MC1984> what
 53 2012-06-01 05:58:51 <Diablo-D3> dont what me.
 54 2012-06-01 05:58:54 <weex> Diablo-D3: people have to change their qt theme?
 55 2012-06-01 05:59:02 <Diablo-D3> weex: normally you do.
 56 2012-06-01 05:59:09 <Diablo-D3> so it blends in with the rest of your desktop
 57 2012-06-01 05:59:14 <MC1984> since when does bitcoin client have themes lol
 58 2012-06-01 05:59:16 <Diablo-D3> unless you already run KDE, then its the same theme
 59 2012-06-01 05:59:18 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: qt.
 60 2012-06-01 05:59:37 <weex> MC1984: you on gnu/linux?
 61 2012-06-01 05:59:41 <MC1984> what the blazez are you on about man
 62 2012-06-01 05:59:49 <Diablo-D3> =|
 63 2012-06-01 06:00:20 <MC1984> im using windows
 64 2012-06-01 06:00:25 <Diablo-D3> oh
 65 2012-06-01 06:00:30 <Diablo-D3> then quit using windows
 66 2012-06-01 06:00:35 <Diablo-D3> because no one gives a fuck about windows.
 67 2012-06-01 06:00:46 <MC1984> lol
 68 2012-06-01 06:01:32 <neofutur> +1 for "quit using windows"
 69 2012-06-01 06:01:45 <neofutur> will be easier to help yourself :p
 70 2012-06-01 06:02:18 <MC1984> il get round to it one day, but for my own reasons not because some software snob prick on the internet told me to
 71 2012-06-01 06:02:36 <MC1984> untill then, this shit is white on lime green
 72 2012-06-01 06:03:25 <Diablo-D3> yes, because windows is lime green
 73 2012-06-01 06:03:33 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck did microsoft ever do that
 74 2012-06-01 06:03:35 <Diablo-D3> that was nuts
 75 2012-06-01 06:03:43 <Diablo-D3> and the fucking fisher price window controls
 76 2012-06-01 06:03:47 <Diablo-D3> WHY DID THEY DO THIS
 77 2012-06-01 06:04:13 <MC1984> cos it used to be grey and marketing dept wanted something cool
 78 2012-06-01 06:04:22 <Diablo-D3> LIME GREEN ISNT COOL
 79 2012-06-01 06:04:29 <Diablo-D3> btw, what windows theme are you using?
 80 2012-06-01 06:04:39 <Diablo-D3> because if you set it to windows classic, I think QT is smart enough to copy the colors
 81 2012-06-01 06:04:55 <MC1984> noir
 82 2012-06-01 06:05:04 <Diablo-D3> er, which one is that?
 83 2012-06-01 06:05:13 <MC1984> the leaked one
 84 2012-06-01 06:05:16 <Diablo-D3> because I only know of the fisher price one, the silver one, and the widows classic one
 85 2012-06-01 06:05:27 <Diablo-D3> oh, and aero
 86 2012-06-01 06:05:42 <Diablo-D3> aero went back to windows blue on that shit I think
 87 2012-06-01 06:06:30 <MC1984> this text has turned black now wtf
 88 2012-06-01 06:07:42 <Diablo-D3> pray bitcoin doesn't alter it any further
 89 2012-06-01 06:09:39 <MC1984> gone bak to white now
 90 2012-06-01 06:09:44 <MC1984> dafuq
 91 2012-06-01 06:10:19 <MC1984> oh it turns blak when the window is unfocused
 92 2012-06-01 06:10:22 <MC1984> interdasting
 93 2012-06-01 06:14:23 <MC1984> bitcoin is not multi threaded rigth
 94 2012-06-01 06:14:35 <Diablo-D3> not in the UI code
 95 2012-06-01 06:14:46 <Diablo-D3> you're looking at QT weirdness
 96 2012-06-01 06:15:14 <MC1984> im trying to work out why hain download is still so shit and how much room for optimization there is there
 97 2012-06-01 06:15:26 <Diablo-D3> you're on 0.6.2 arent you?
 98 2012-06-01 06:15:37 <MC1984> i am now
 99 2012-06-01 06:16:29 <Diablo-D3> its much faster than it was
100 2012-06-01 06:17:54 <MC1984> avg 1 blok per 5 seconds here
101 2012-06-01 06:19:02 <MC1984> i still pray there are perhaps massive database structure efficiency gains to be made at some point
102 2012-06-01 06:19:07 <MC1984> or something
103 2012-06-01 06:19:40 <MC1984> as if i have a clue what im talking about
104 2012-06-01 06:19:47 <Diablo-D3> there is
105 2012-06-01 06:19:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell and sipa have been working on it
106 2012-06-01 06:20:09 <MC1984> cool
107 2012-06-01 06:20:28 <MC1984> hopefully that an trim the size of the stored blockchain too maybe
108 2012-06-01 06:21:07 <MC1984> the speedups so far seem non existent on slightly older hardware from what ive seen and read
109 2012-06-01 06:21:35 <MC1984> which consigns a lot of people to thin clients only really, certainly anyone outside the west prob
110 2012-06-01 06:35:19 <MC1984> wait is blockchain download and indexing etc limited by ram
111 2012-06-01 06:42:35 <Eliel> MC1984: I was thinking the other day that instead of just seeking and reading the transaction data as needed, it could be done in batches. First reading the index for a large number of transactions, sorting out the data you need to read and then sorting those to disk order and then reading them all in one go.
112 2012-06-01 06:53:01 <MC1984> ok so
113 2012-06-01 06:53:41 <MC1984> currently txns propagate aroudn the whole network much faster than the time to first confirm them in a block
114 2012-06-01 06:54:05 <MC1984> but they are only considered secure after 1+ blocks preferrably more
115 2012-06-01 06:55:05 <weex> MC1984: each block adds to the probably amount of work required to double-spend
116 2012-06-01 06:55:12 <weex> probable*
117 2012-06-01 06:55:25 <MC1984> would it be possible for a node to mitigate double spends in that 10 minute window by comparing the txns its making/receiving to what its hearing on the network right now?
118 2012-06-01 06:55:55 <MC1984> like a cursory double spend check until the first conf comes in
119 2012-06-01 06:56:00 <weex> yes, this is called the observer method
120 2012-06-01 06:56:18 <Diablo-D3> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83985.msg934569#msg934569
121 2012-06-01 06:56:18 <MC1984> is it a good idea
122 2012-06-01 06:57:35 <MC1984> what
123 2012-06-01 06:57:52 <weex> again with the whats
124 2012-06-01 06:59:07 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit, I read what weex said in the new york jew voice
125 2012-06-01 06:59:32 <MC1984> i am astounded of your seeminly arbitrary interjection good sir, pray you elucidate the meaning of this hypertextual link?
126 2012-06-01 06:59:54 <weex> Diablo-D3: fuggedaboutit
127 2012-06-01 07:00:05 <Diablo-D3> weex: organized crime voice.
128 2012-06-01 07:00:27 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: less than 50w bfl single 2.0
129 2012-06-01 07:00:45 <MC1984> is that good
130 2012-06-01 07:02:23 <Diablo-D3> yes
131 2012-06-01 07:02:31 <Diablo-D3> I like the single design, but 80w is just too much
132 2012-06-01 07:03:43 <MC1984> you can passive cool 50w
133 2012-06-01 07:04:10 <MC1984> needs design better than a cube tho
134 2012-06-01 07:04:36 <weex> that's just its gorgeous exterior
135 2012-06-01 07:05:03 <weex> inside i think it's mainly electrical tape and resistors
136 2012-06-01 07:05:15 <Diablo-D3> weex: erm, they've took photos of the inside
137 2012-06-01 07:05:29 <Diablo-D3> its a rather plain high density circuit board
138 2012-06-01 07:05:49 <Diablo-D3> high density as in what video cards and the parts of mobos around the cpu look like
139 2012-06-01 07:06:04 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: 80w you cant reliably passive cool, and 50 is, eh, too high
140 2012-06-01 07:06:15 <Diablo-D3> 25 or 33 could do it with a large enough copper heatsink
141 2012-06-01 07:10:34 <MC1984> ok so the thing i said
142 2012-06-01 07:10:42 <MC1984> i assume someone thought of it before
143 2012-06-01 07:12:05 <MC1984> seemslike a good idea to me, for instantly securing small txn up to a certain risk threshold
144 2012-06-01 07:12:16 <MC1984> POS in shops maybe
145 2012-06-01 07:12:40 <MC1984> if youre buying a car you can wait an hour for the deal to become airtight
146 2012-06-01 07:13:27 <Diablo-D3> erm
147 2012-06-01 07:13:35 <Diablo-D3> didnt someone already start working on that?
148 2012-06-01 07:13:37 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: btw
149 2012-06-01 07:13:44 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin isnt meant to replace day to day credit card shit
150 2012-06-01 07:13:55 <Diablo-D3> its meant to replace fedwire and online ordering both
151 2012-06-01 07:14:17 <MC1984> well thats a shame
152 2012-06-01 07:14:47 <sipa> for instant payments you want a third-party payment processor on top of bitcoin
153 2012-06-01 07:14:52 <Diablo-D3> yeah what sipa said
154 2012-06-01 07:14:59 <Diablo-D3> you need to centralize transaction management
155 2012-06-01 07:15:07 <Diablo-D3> transactions as in database transactions, not money transactions
156 2012-06-01 07:15:10 <MC1984> cool added cost
157 2012-06-01 07:15:41 <sipa> thankfully, because of bitcoin's inherent digital design, setting up such a processor should be trivial compared to setting up paypal
158 2012-06-01 07:15:45 <Diablo-D3> I could easily do 5 million transactions a second on a single shit computer
159 2012-06-01 07:15:57 <Diablo-D3> I just cant write them to disk fast enough.
160 2012-06-01 07:16:13 <MC1984> but why if you dont need to
161 2012-06-01 07:16:25 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: well I have to account for things
162 2012-06-01 07:16:46 <Diablo-D3> although maybe a future bitcoin transaction processor will use Lugh
163 2012-06-01 07:16:55 <Diablo-D3> (my highly parallel C library)
164 2012-06-01 07:16:56 <MC1984> wouldnt the thing i described provide a seller with a resonable confidence of not getting double spent for a given risk level
165 2012-06-01 07:17:08 <MC1984> normal everyday purchasing shit risk level
166 2012-06-01 07:17:11 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: it must be accountable.
167 2012-06-01 07:17:45 <MC1984> how would it not be accountable
168 2012-06-01 07:17:55 <Diablo-D3> joe shmoe needs to pay with instantdick and then immediately be able to whip out his cell phone and see the new transaction on instantdick
169 2012-06-01 07:18:04 <Diablo-D3> the transactions must be recorded.
170 2012-06-01 07:18:54 <MC1984> its just bitcoin with an extra good enough up to x risk level double pend preventer thing
171 2012-06-01 07:19:02 <Diablo-D3> nope, its not.
172 2012-06-01 07:19:10 <Diablo-D3> you have not properly conceptualized the problem.
173 2012-06-01 07:20:00 <MC1984> the problem is not getting double spent on upto maybe $100 of value or whatever
174 2012-06-01 07:20:08 <MC1984> and not having to wait 10 mins
175 2012-06-01 07:20:42 <Diablo-D3> not quite.
176 2012-06-01 07:20:51 <Diablo-D3> you'd have a reloadable bitcard.
177 2012-06-01 07:20:57 <MC1984> just a bitcoind that keeps an ear out for double spends as they come over the wire and calls shenanigans if it sees one, not a complex thing
178 2012-06-01 07:21:32 <sipa> MC1984: i think you want to hide that behind a third party as well
179 2012-06-01 07:21:47 <MC1984> lemme guess a trusted third party
180 2012-06-01 07:22:24 <Diablo-D3> yes.
181 2012-06-01 07:22:29 <Diablo-D3> trust isnt an issue for small amounts
182 2012-06-01 07:22:35 <sipa> as a merchant you have a deal with a transaction processor; customers send transactions to transaction processor (but transactions to your address; they can't go run away with your money)
183 2012-06-01 07:22:57 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is optimized for large transactions, not small ones
184 2012-06-01 07:23:04 <sipa> you pay the processor a small fee, and in return they insure you against double spends
185 2012-06-01 07:23:22 <MC1984> insurance = added cost
186 2012-06-01 07:23:22 <sipa> they do this by for small transactions just not caring
187 2012-06-01 07:23:25 <sipa> of course
188 2012-06-01 07:23:28 <sipa> nothing is free
189 2012-06-01 07:23:58 <MC1984> you guy are talking about something completely different to me
190 2012-06-01 07:24:14 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: you fail at basic computer science
191 2012-06-01 07:24:34 <sipa> and for large transactions, they probe for double spends for a short time, before confirming the transaction
192 2012-06-01 07:24:56 <Diablo-D3> parallel, transactionally safe, or fast. pick two _on a good day_.
193 2012-06-01 07:25:18 <MC1984> you fail at understanding
194 2012-06-01 07:25:27 <MC1984> small txn just have to be safe enough
195 2012-06-01 07:25:30 <MC1984> not total safe
196 2012-06-01 07:25:46 <MC1984> no payment system is 100% secure
197 2012-06-01 07:25:48 <sipa> indeed, bitcoin is already far more safe for a merchant than credit cards
198 2012-06-01 07:25:56 <weex> MC1984: so you have to quantify the risk
199 2012-06-01 07:26:02 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: no, you're trying to describe the starbucks system
200 2012-06-01 07:26:12 <Diablo-D3> a few mistakes here and there doesnt cost anything overall
201 2012-06-01 07:26:45 <Diablo-D3> the payment and product-in-a-cup delivery system are async.
202 2012-06-01 07:27:05 <MC1984> what the shit are you on about seriously
203 2012-06-01 07:27:06 <Diablo-D3> problem is bitcoin is NOT a POS payment system and never will be
204 2012-06-01 07:27:19 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: are you fucking kidding me?
205 2012-06-01 07:27:45 <Diablo-D3> Googler, motherfucker, do you use it.
206 2012-06-01 07:27:55 <sipa> please
207 2012-06-01 07:28:02 <MC1984> yeah everyone seems to have given up and resorted to trusted parties and insurance and god damn bitcoin credit cards
208 2012-06-01 07:28:14 <Diablo-D3> sipa: you explain this to him, I give up
209 2012-06-01 07:28:19 <sipa> MC1984: depends what time-fram you're looking at
210 2012-06-01 07:28:40 <MC1984> POS time frame
211 2012-06-01 07:28:46 <weex> and what level of risk you're willing to accept
212 2012-06-01 07:28:51 <MC1984> with acceptable risk of not getting diked on as a merchant
213 2012-06-01 07:28:53 <Diablo-D3> POS time frame is not the best term
214 2012-06-01 07:28:59 <Diablo-D3> not all POS systems use the same time frame
215 2012-06-01 07:29:01 <sipa> but what bitcoin provides imho, is the ability to be completely responsible for your own money, without trusting anyway
216 2012-06-01 07:29:13 <sipa> that does not mean it can be used for any financial transaction
217 2012-06-01 07:29:18 <MC1984> say 30 seconds max then
218 2012-06-01 07:29:18 <sipa> or that it is free
219 2012-06-01 07:29:24 <Diablo-D3> 30 seconds is very high
220 2012-06-01 07:29:26 <Diablo-D3> for some.
221 2012-06-01 07:29:28 <weex> i think mcdonalds has it down to 3 seconds with amex
222 2012-06-01 07:29:31 <Diablo-D3> for others, thats very low.
223 2012-06-01 07:29:33 <weex> or 2
224 2012-06-01 07:29:36 <Diablo-D3> weex: heh
225 2012-06-01 07:29:41 <Diablo-D3> mcdonalds runs its own processing system