1 2012-07-27 02:17:21 <weex> luke-jr: thanks for the clarification on the exponential notation and rounding. In python you can use getcontext().prec to set decimal precision but it doesn't count zeroes quite the way i'd like for btc. For example 0.0012345678 stays as it is rather than turning into 0.00123457
  2 2012-07-27 02:17:50 <luke-jr> weex: best practices are to work in raw Bitcoin units (Satoshis) as an integer
  3 2012-07-27 02:18:29 <weex> now that's an idea.
  4 2012-07-27 02:23:53 <lianj> o/
  5 2012-07-27 02:24:15 <MagicalTux> that's how we work here :)
  6 2012-07-27 02:35:46 <weex> might even be a good idea to put that in some sort of Bitcoin developer's guide
  7 2012-07-27 02:36:03 <weex> developers developers developers and all that
  8 2012-07-27 02:36:17 <luke-jr> weex: it should be
  9 2012-07-27 02:38:15 <weex> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PHP_developer_intro#Precision is a start
 10 2012-07-27 02:38:53 <copumpkin> "In Bitcoin, money is sent to addresses. Your balance is the total of all the money in all the address in your wallet."
 11 2012-07-27 02:40:47 <weex> fixed
 12 2012-07-27 02:40:57 <gmaxwell> Thats a pretty nice level of mistakes per word.
 13 2012-07-27 02:41:08 <luke-jr> lol
 14 2012-07-27 02:41:16 <gmaxwell> well, pedantry fails per word at least.
 15 2012-07-27 02:41:36 <weex> i never use accounts
 16 2012-07-27 02:43:16 <gmaxwell> ObPedantry: Bitcoin isn't 'money' by some commonly used definitions. It's bitcoin.  In the system it's not sent to addresses, it's released to be claimed by potentially other people subject to small programs specified by the prior owners. The balance displayed in the reference software is the sum of all inputs your wallet knows it can redeem which are confirmed and at least 6 deep in the chain.
 17 2012-07-27 02:43:26 <gmaxwell> :)
 18 2012-07-27 02:43:30 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: nonsense, Bitcoin is money
 19 2012-07-27 02:43:43 <gmaxwell> Better to avoid the definition.
 20 2012-07-27 02:43:49 <gmaxwell> Because it's a boring argument.
 21 2012-07-27 02:43:55 <weex> especially on this page
 22 2012-07-27 02:44:11 <weex> it's not Haskell development intro after all
 23 2012-07-27 02:44:42 <gmaxwell> Words mean what we choose them to mean. There are some fairly large circles of people (including some legislative bodies) who _define_ "money" as being issued by a government.
 24 2012-07-27 02:45:04 <gmaxwell> Disputes over words teach us nothing, it's the lowest form of debate. It's always better to try to skirt them.
 25 2012-07-27 02:45:51 <Diablo-D3> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2012/07/make-your-mark-on-google-with-handwrite.html
 26 2012-07-27 02:45:54 <Diablo-D3> huh.
 27 2012-07-27 02:46:17 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: lower than disputes over grammar?
 28 2012-07-27 02:46:27 <luke-jr> or disputes over the level of disputes?
 29 2012-07-27 02:46:32 <gmaxwell> hahaha
 30 2012-07-27 02:46:32 <lianj> Diablo-D3: yikes
 31 2012-07-27 02:46:45 <luke-jr> :
 32 2012-07-27 02:46:46 <Diablo-D3> yeah, Im... mildly impressed, really.
 33 2012-07-27 02:46:51 <gmaxwell> ultimately disputes over those things reduce to disputes over definitions. ;)
 34 2012-07-27 02:46:52 <Diablo-D3> well, if it works
 35 2012-07-27 02:46:56 <Diablo-D3> handwriting shit never works
 36 2012-07-27 02:47:03 <weex> classic programmer conversation --^
 37 2012-07-27 02:48:25 <lianj> Diablo-D3: i guess most kids can do better with virtual keyboard typing than handwriting
 38 2012-07-27 02:49:17 <Diablo-D3> I cant
 39 2012-07-27 02:49:27 <Diablo-D3> they didnt have that when I was a kid
 40 2012-07-27 02:49:31 <lianj> then use the voice input (if that works) :P
 41 2012-07-27 02:49:33 <Diablo-D3> all I can do is type on a real keyboard
 42 2012-07-27 02:49:38 <Diablo-D3> voice input doesnt work
 43 2012-07-27 02:51:19 <amiller> i read about an interesting variation of proof-of-work puzzles, this one is by Dwork and Naor, its main feature is that it has a large "fixed forever random array" thats meant to require a lot of memory http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~naor/PAPERS/mem.pdf
 44 2012-07-27 02:51:49 <amiller> it's unlike scrypt, which is also meant to be memory bound, because scrypt involves changing the memory while the dwork/naor one is permanently fixed
 45 2012-07-27 02:51:56 <luke-jr> amiller: and what does that waste of memory buy for the POW?
 46 2012-07-27 02:52:07 <gmaxwell> the memory would be the blockchain.
 47 2012-07-27 02:52:11 <amiller> not in this case
 48 2012-07-27 02:52:26 <luke-jr> amiller: but what makes it any better than SHA256?
 49 2012-07-27 02:52:32 <amiller> er i mean gmaxwell, that's what i had been thinking of before, but i meant to describe this one as a different idea where it's just a random fixed set of data
 50 2012-07-27 02:52:42 <amiller> hold on luke-jr i didn't say it's better i just said it was interesting
 51 2012-07-27 02:53:20 <amiller> the reason i think it's interesting is that i can imagine the most efficient way to implement this as having the data burned into an asic, and then the device would not be useful for anything else except mining
 52 2012-07-27 02:54:19 <amiller> and i'm beginning to think that may be a useful abstraction, to assume that the miner's weapon-of-choice isn't useful for anything else
 53 2012-07-27 02:54:21 <gmaxwell> amiller: you do basically get that with any sufficiently complicated algorithim though.
 54 2012-07-27 02:55:08 <gmaxwell> and yes, I do agree with your 'miner's weapon-of-choice isn't useful for anything else' point.
 55 2012-07-27 02:55:28 <gmaxwell> Since it makes the risk from computing markets easier to reason about.
 56 2012-07-27 02:55:33 <amiller> i guess what i'm really struggling with right now is that i'm trying to come up with a better initial condition than '49%'
 57 2012-07-27 02:55:45 <amiller> i can't think of anyway to proceed without making some idealizations about costs
 58 2012-07-27 02:55:46 <amiller> yeah
 59 2012-07-27 02:56:42 <amiller> maybe one way to think of it is that all the equipment costs are paid for initially and then in the steady state, perhaps the market price of purchasing a used mining rig is equal to the cost of building one, is equal to the expected return on the investment
 60 2012-07-27 02:57:05 <amiller> this is outside the realm of what i know how to reason about formally :/
 61 2012-07-27 03:00:36 <gmaxwell> I think the equality of borrowing vs buying is a useful one to have.
 62 2012-07-27 03:01:04 <gmaxwell> Just earlier someone was worring in #bitcoin about people attacking bitcoin cheaply by throwing miners a few bitcents bonus.
 63 2012-07-27 03:01:35 <gmaxwell> My argument was you couldn't buy them for a non-trivial attack for anything less than the cost of buying their rigs, unless they're all idiots, because helping you attack would make their mining hardware worthless.
 64 2012-07-27 03:02:00 <amiller> interesting, i just ran through exactly that train of thought for the first time a few minutes ago
 65 2012-07-27 03:02:40 <gmaxwell> it's not a new idea, though I think it's been about a year since I heard anyone suggest it.
 66 2012-07-27 03:02:42 <amiller> you might be able to talk them into just giving you carte blanche access to it "just an hour, it's definitely not for a 6 block attack though"
 67 2012-07-27 03:03:22 <gmaxwell> If the access is intermediated its not hard to prevent some kinds of abuses.
 68 2012-07-27 03:03:59 <gmaxwell> e.g. you can prevent the prev hash from going backwards, so the same hardware can't reverse a chain segment it worked on.
 69 2012-07-27 03:04:28 <gmaxwell> In theory some of this security could even be baked in mining asics, I suppose, allowing people to precommit to a level of honesty at purchase time.
 70 2012-07-27 03:05:05 <gmaxwell> (and thus also blocking race to the bottom compromises)
 71 2012-07-27 03:06:16 <gmaxwell> e.g. using the decision over the content of the very high NRE masks as a consensus point when we might individually defect.
 72 2012-07-27 03:06:54 <amiller> it's interesting that the ideal rig, even to a selfish miner, would be really cheap in power over time, whereas an ideal attacking rig would only need to run for an hour
 73 2012-07-27 03:07:12 <copumpkin> omg haskell
 74 2012-07-27 03:08:14 <weex> copumpkin: you gonna write a haskell bitcoin developer page?
 75 2012-07-27 03:08:30 <copumpkin> maybe when there's actually something to say :)
 76 2012-07-27 03:12:03 <amiller> we have roconnor's source code
 77 2012-07-27 03:12:06 <amiller> that's a start
 78 2012-07-27 03:16:04 <amiller> he made his own sha512 in there
 79 2012-07-27 03:16:51 <copumpkin> yup
 80 2012-07-27 03:16:55 <copumpkin> he made his own everything
 81 2012-07-27 03:16:59 <copumpkin> well, sha256, right?
 82 2012-07-27 03:17:03 <copumpkin> he has the EC stuff too
 83 2012-07-27 03:17:05 <copumpkin> and ripemd160
 84 2012-07-27 04:21:36 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1635 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1635>
 85 2012-07-27 04:25:04 <gambler> gmaxwell: you had made slanderous accusations of me being a lair then refused to provide proof
 86 2012-07-27 04:25:20 <gambler> all based on your personal distaste of satoshidice and my site satoshiroulette
 87 2012-07-27 04:25:37 <gambler> I regret you could not set aside your petty diferences so we could discuss this
 88 2012-07-27 04:25:55 <midnightmagic> oh, he beat you to it :)
 89 2012-07-27 04:46:59 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1636 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1636>
 90 2012-07-27 06:27:49 <saga> hi every1
 91 2012-07-27 06:28:17 <saga> ny1 here?
 92 2012-07-27 06:28:22 <edcba> nope
 93 2012-07-27 06:28:29 <saga> lol
 94 2012-07-27 06:28:33 <saga> hi
 95 2012-07-27 06:28:37 <edcba> hi
 96 2012-07-27 06:28:42 <saga> can you help me?
 97 2012-07-27 06:28:49 <saga> I have some queries
 98 2012-07-27 06:28:56 <statham> ask ask ask
 99 2012-07-27 06:29:00 <doublec> read the topic
100 2012-07-27 06:29:08 <doublec> "Ask, dont ask to ask."
101 2012-07-27 06:29:14 <saga> cool...
102 2012-07-27 06:29:18 <saga> lol
103 2012-07-27 06:30:06 <saga> okay..how much confirmation is mandatory for any transaction?
104 2012-07-27 06:30:41 <saga> how many confirmations does it take before it's accepted in the wallet?
105 2012-07-27 06:31:10 <edcba> 5 iirc
106 2012-07-27 06:31:28 <statham> about 3 in advance is more than enough to make almost impossible a cheat
107 2012-07-27 06:31:49 <edcba> i would even trust 1 :)
108 2012-07-27 06:31:58 <statham> i do too
109 2012-07-27 06:32:02 <saga> okay..I studied few  text and found 6 would be good enough
110 2012-07-27 06:32:14 <saga> though now I set 1 ..
111 2012-07-27 06:32:29 <edcba> the reason of why 5/6 is explained in the paper
112 2012-07-27 06:33:03 <statham> the total hashpower is of about 14 000 Ghash now, i doubt someone have enough power to make a double spend
113 2012-07-27 06:33:09 <saga> okay..now my question is...if I will set it 6 or more than 1 then how much time will be taken for confirmation...
114 2012-07-27 06:33:13 <edcba> but i don't think other clients will accept a tx spending freshly minted coins
115 2012-07-27 06:33:21 <saga> and will there be any extra charges applied for that?
116 2012-07-27 06:33:40 <statham> about 40 min to take 8 confirmations
117 2012-07-27 06:33:49 <edcba> ?
118 2012-07-27 06:33:59 <saga> as for 1 its taking 10min
119 2012-07-27 06:34:18 <saga> so, I could expect 30 min!
120 2012-07-27 06:34:28 <saga> fr 6 confirmations?
121 2012-07-27 06:34:36 <statham> i checked a transaction abotu 40 min later and it had 8 confirmations
122 2012-07-27 06:34:42 <statham> maybe i am wrong
123 2012-07-27 06:35:14 <saga> okay, but its sure that the time will be lil longer, right?
124 2012-07-27 06:36:41 <statham> maybe
125 2012-07-27 06:36:54 <statham> but who cares? after 3 confirmations you are done,
126 2012-07-27 06:37:40 <statham> you can even move without any confirmations
127 2012-07-27 06:37:47 <saga> thats nice...I must set 3 then..lol
128 2012-07-27 06:38:23 <statham> try electrum client, i am testing it since 2 days and i am delighted with it,
129 2012-07-27 06:38:36 <statham> the deterministic wallet creation is... :D
130 2012-07-27 06:38:50 <saga> and will there be any automated process to show that 3/2/1 confirmation has been left before total verification in web page?
131 2012-07-27 06:39:12 <statham> whitch web ?
132 2012-07-27 06:39:48 <saga> I have a web page to generate wallets, send receive BTCs
133 2012-07-27 06:40:00 <statham> i see
134 2012-07-27 06:40:10 <statham> that depends on the web
135 2012-07-27 06:40:19 <saga> I am asking if there is anything to show the remaining confirmation
136 2012-07-27 06:40:32 <statham> i dont know,
137 2012-07-27 06:40:35 <statham> what web you use?
138 2012-07-27 06:40:40 <saga> can it be fetched by json RPC or else?
139 2012-07-27 06:40:46 <saga> let me show you
140 2012-07-27 06:41:06 <saga> http://www.zenwallet.org/
141 2012-07-27 06:41:10 <saga> this is my site
142 2012-07-27 06:41:19 <saga> I made it...
143 2012-07-27 06:41:20 <saga> :)
144 2012-07-27 06:42:01 <statham> looking good,
145 2012-07-27 06:42:07 <statham> the qr code is blurry however
146 2012-07-27 06:42:07 <sturles> When ASICs take over all bitcoin mining, people will start using their GPUs to mine for Electrum wallets with human made secret phrases. :-)
147 2012-07-27 06:42:29 <saga> thanks ..u can click on those to see in bigger size :)
148 2012-07-27 06:42:43 <statham> oh now its better,
149 2012-07-27 06:42:51 <saga> lol...
150 2012-07-27 06:42:53 <statham> sturles humm its 2^128
151 2012-07-27 06:43:19 <statham> i doubt they get any electrum wallet
152 2012-07-27 06:43:31 <saga> I am working on web fr last 6 yrs..n I try to make things prominent..lol
153 2012-07-27 06:43:42 <sturles> statham: Yep, but a human made phrase don't have much entropy.
154 2012-07-27 06:43:46 <statham> 6 years? bitcoin born 4 years ago
155 2012-07-27 06:44:13 <statham> sturles they electrum should update they deterministic wallet
156 2012-07-27 06:44:16 <statham> then*
157 2012-07-27 06:44:25 <statham> for a more complicated one
158 2012-07-27 06:44:45 <saga> lol..no no..I have been working on web, not bitcoin
159 2012-07-27 06:45:14 <saga> though I know m a novis ...
160 2012-07-27 06:45:16 <saga> :)
161 2012-07-27 06:45:31 <sturles> Yep.  I'm sure there are a lot of wallets out there with bad secret phrases.  There are probably more than ten people sharing the deterministic wallet with the phrase "my penis is very big".
162 2012-07-27 06:46:05 <sturles> Or similar.
163 2012-07-27 06:46:32 <statham> so in your opinion the deterministic wallet is a bad idea
164 2012-07-27 06:46:42 <saga> might be...though I am just trying to do something better...and if you guys can help me
165 2012-07-27 06:47:27 <sturles> No, it is not a bad idea, but there are stupid people born every minute.  Stupid people make stupid choices, like bad phrases to generate their wallet.
166 2012-07-27 06:47:46 <statham> i think is a good idea but maybe should be made much more difficult, i like the idea of printing something, and with it and an algorithm, be able to revoer all your wallet
167 2012-07-27 06:48:05 <saga> see, all these might be controversial , so let concentrate on the improvement and technologies.., right guys?
168 2012-07-27 06:48:12 <statham> so maybe a much larger seed must be done for the deterministic wallet
169 2012-07-27 06:48:21 <statham> sturles
170 2012-07-27 06:48:26 <statham> but the deterministic wallet of electrum
171 2012-07-27 06:48:29 <statham> is random
172 2012-07-27 06:48:39 <statham> you can't choose your words
173 2012-07-27 06:49:14 <saga> plz, guyz..we all have our personal views...and if those are not wrong then respect..plzzz
174 2012-07-27 06:49:36 <saga> so, cheer up...
175 2012-07-27 06:49:42 <saga> wanna some beer ? ;)
176 2012-07-27 06:50:01 <statham> there is a fixed 12 words electrum generated and you must remeber or write, and with those words, then you can recover the wallet
177 2012-07-27 06:50:29 <statham> you can put "my penis is big" as a seed for a deterministic wallet
178 2012-07-27 06:50:41 <saga> 12 words???
179 2012-07-27 06:50:56 <statham> yes
180 2012-07-27 06:51:31 <saga> okay...but isnt it too long?
181 2012-07-27 06:51:43 <saga> and I thing, m not aware of it!...
182 2012-07-27 06:51:44 <edcba> your penis ?
183 2012-07-27 06:51:54 <saga> can u focus lil more, plz?
184 2012-07-27 06:52:23 <statham> if you must remember it, its long, but its still much more easy than remember a code of 32 randome characters linked to those words
185 2012-07-27 06:52:35 <edcba> indeed
186 2012-07-27 06:53:16 <saga> okay..32chars ..u mean to say the wallet ID or the address?
187 2012-07-27 06:53:48 <statham> its the "seed" that will use an algorith to generate always your same wallet
188 2012-07-27 06:54:14 <sturles> statham: You used to be able to choose, but this was changed.  A smart move.
189 2012-07-27 06:54:49 <statham> is just a nice feature of electrum client, you dont need to make backup after each transaction, just write the master code of 32 char
190 2012-07-27 06:54:57 <statham> and with it, electrum will generate back your wallet
191 2012-07-27 06:55:16 <saga> really, m nt so sure about all these..it seems I have created something similer with so simple logic...!
192 2012-07-27 06:55:21 <saga> I believe so.. :p
193 2012-07-27 06:55:51 <statham> sturles i never knew in earlier versions they allowed you to choose
194 2012-07-27 06:56:08 <edcba> and the first 2 yrs there wasn't much ppl :)
195 2012-07-27 06:56:22 <statham> i bet electrum is going to be a nice client, i like it right now
196 2012-07-27 06:56:27 <saga> okay, I have another question fr u guyz...
197 2012-07-27 06:56:29 <edcba> oh fcking buffer
198 2012-07-27 06:56:43 <statham> saga okey, fire
199 2012-07-27 06:56:57 <saga> lol...
200 2012-07-27 06:56:59 <edcba> i'd prefer ice
201 2012-07-27 06:57:02 <saga> what is mixing service?
202 2012-07-27 06:57:20 <statham> i think its like a proxy
203 2012-07-27 06:57:23 <edcba> some laundry service ?
204 2012-07-27 06:57:25 <statham> but for bitcoin
205 2012-07-27 06:57:30 <saga> plz, tell me in simple words..as I couldnt found something easy to understand..
206 2012-07-27 06:57:32 <statham> they clena yoru bitcoins
207 2012-07-27 06:57:36 <statham> yes it is
208 2012-07-27 06:57:44 <saga> port 9050?
209 2012-07-27 06:57:45 <statham> just a middle man
210 2012-07-27 06:57:52 <statham> for your transactions as far as i know
211 2012-07-27 06:58:16 <saga> okay, so how to implement it?
212 2012-07-27 06:58:20 <statham> you send them the money, they start to move it all around and end up in the destination you choosed
213 2012-07-27 06:58:30 <statham> no idea :P i am not that expert
214 2012-07-27 06:58:37 <statham> there is a service
215 2012-07-27 06:58:39 <statham> in blockchain
216 2012-07-27 06:58:45 <statham> for free
217 2012-07-27 06:58:51 <statham> they do it
218 2012-07-27 06:58:58 <saga> okay, so its nothing but a 3rd party ?
219 2012-07-27 06:59:21 <statham> as far as i know yes
220 2012-07-27 06:59:45 <saga> okay...and so TOR is it..at least fr now?
221 2012-07-27 07:00:07 <statham> free?
222 2012-07-27 07:00:22 <statham> tor is a chained proxy serviced with encryption
223 2012-07-27 07:00:24 <saga> no..bot at all
224 2012-07-27 07:00:34 <statham> i dont get what you mean
225 2012-07-27 07:00:40 <saga> yes...n they provide this mixing
226 2012-07-27 07:01:37 <saga> I found that mixing service in TOR's site...
227 2012-07-27 07:01:51 <saga> so I have been curious
228 2012-07-27 07:02:17 <saga> what exactly is it? does Bitcoin provide such service itself?
229 2012-07-27 07:02:37 <saga> can we do this for our bitcoin client or sites?
230 2012-07-27 07:04:52 <saga> okay, I think I have to study a lot on it...
231 2012-07-27 07:05:05 <saga> but can u guyz tell me this..
232 2012-07-27 07:05:07 <saga> when a transaction comes in is there a way to show "Pending XXX BTC waiting on X confirmations"?
233 2012-07-27 07:05:58 <saga> is it possible to get the sent amount before confirmation?
234 2012-07-27 07:54:21 <gribble> 190999
235 2012-07-27 07:54:21 <t7> ;;bc,blocks
236 2012-07-27 07:55:02 <t7> take your time
237 2012-07-27 07:55:41 <t7> saga: with the official client?
238 2012-07-27 07:56:02 <t7> there are websites todo this
239 2012-07-27 07:56:38 <saga> ohhh...yes yes
240 2012-07-27 07:56:53 <saga> I though no 1 is here..
241 2012-07-27 07:57:02 <saga> actually the thing tis..
242 2012-07-27 07:57:29 <saga> when I am sending an amount to other address, it does got confirmed instantly..
243 2012-07-27 07:57:46 <saga> it takes time based on no, of confirmaitons
244 2012-07-27 07:58:36 <saga> now, my question is, how can I get that uncinfirmed amount for the receiving address/account?
245 2012-07-27 07:58:44 <saga> is there any way?
246 2012-07-27 07:59:18 <t7> duno lol ???(-_-)/???
247 2012-07-27 07:59:31 <saga> :-p
248 2012-07-27 07:59:35 <saga> lol
249 2012-07-27 07:59:48 <saga> do any1 here have knowledge on it?
250 2012-07-27 08:00:09 <saga> I tried some rpc function to get that..but no deserving result!!!!
251 2012-07-27 08:01:16 <[7]> saga: the get transactions rcp api does return unconfirmed transactions as well
252 2012-07-27 08:01:25 <Joric> what's that upper underscore ??? how did you type it
253 2012-07-27 08:02:10 <saga> ohh really! do u know that function name?
254 2012-07-27 08:02:48 <[7]> Joric: on linux on a german keyboard (my setup) it's altgr+shift+plus
255 2012-07-27 08:03:15 <[7]> saga: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
256 2012-07-27 08:03:35 <[7]> the listtransactions call
257 2012-07-27 08:05:39 <saga> its looking good...thanks :)
258 2012-07-27 08:06:51 <Joric> [7], i wonder what this char can be used for except that duno lol smile
259 2012-07-27 08:06:51 <t7> arnt you on holiday?
260 2012-07-27 10:05:36 <t7> where can i find info about blckindex.dat etc?
261 2012-07-27 10:05:55 <t7> i guess its DBD format or something
262 2012-07-27 10:10:32 <edcba> berkley db
263 2012-07-27 10:10:41 <t7> BDB*
264 2012-07-27 10:29:48 <MagicalTux> gribble: testing something
265 2012-07-27 10:47:42 <t7> geez you guys should use namespacing or something
266 2012-07-27 10:47:48 <t7> i cant find a damn thing
267 2012-07-27 11:14:00 <jgarzik> heh
268 2012-07-27 11:14:10 <jgarzik> coblee, on litecoin: "Our current network hashrate is at 315 mhash/s. That may be an all time high!"
269 2012-07-27 11:39:29 <edcba> what is litecoin ?
270 2012-07-27 11:40:46 <edcba> is it just a stupid fork with tweaked parameters ,
271 2012-07-27 11:40:47 <edcba> ?
272 2012-07-27 11:40:57 <epscy> yes
273 2012-07-27 11:40:59 <edcba> (by a non early adopter)
274 2012-07-27 11:41:02 <edcba> ok lol
275 2012-07-27 11:41:54 <epscy> i think the main difference is that blocks are every 2.5 minutes as opposed to 10
276 2012-07-27 11:42:09 <edcba> hmm changed algo and liter blockchain
277 2012-07-27 11:42:14 <epscy> it's blockchain is already quite large despite no one really using it
278 2012-07-27 11:42:15 <edcba> looks
279 2012-07-27 11:42:50 <epscy> i think 10 minutes is fine, but i wish the variance wasn't so high
280 2012-07-27 11:44:08 <t7> its for the hackers and their botnets
281 2012-07-27 11:44:53 <BlueMatt> ls
282 2012-07-27 11:45:01 <BlueMatt> heh, wrong window
283 2012-07-27 11:45:10 <epscy> .
284 2012-07-27 11:45:12 <epscy> ..
285 2012-07-27 11:45:24 <epscy> ./D0nk3yPR0n/
286 2012-07-27 11:50:32 <doublec> edcba: it uses a different pow algorithm that was supposed to be gpu resistant
287 2012-07-27 11:50:59 <edcba> i don't see how you could do a gpu resistant algo
288 2012-07-27 11:52:04 <edcba> ok maybe i see
289 2012-07-27 11:52:39 <edcba> the problem is that it would be as long to verify than to generate
290 2012-07-27 11:53:22 <edcba> i don't see where they have a smaller block
291 2012-07-27 11:54:43 <epscy> edcba: memory hard rather than cpu hard
292 2012-07-27 11:55:03 <epscy> but i think gpu's are still better at scrypt than cpu's
293 2012-07-27 11:55:18 <epscy> the advantage isn't as big as bitcoins alog though
294 2012-07-27 12:18:24 <t7> if you have a heavy branching algorithm it will be faster on cpu, right?
295 2012-07-27 12:25:56 <quintopia> t7: as compared to a GPU, yes, but not compared to an algorithm that minimizes branches
296 2012-07-27 12:31:37 <jgarzik> pynode now processes every p2p message except 'alert'
297 2012-07-27 12:32:43 <jgarzik> EvalScript() is in place, now to hook it up to TX verification
298 2012-07-27 12:33:28 <t7> source
299 2012-07-27 12:37:29 <t7> my blockchain updating is going realllllllyyyyyyyy slow
300 2012-07-27 12:37:35 <t7> 3 blocks in about 30 mins
301 2012-07-27 12:37:50 <t7> not using much cpu... 7 peers...
302 2012-07-27 13:10:03 <sturles> Perhaps one of your peers is mine.  It is always up and among the top 20 on the seeds list, but the output bandwidth to incoming nodes is throttled to 200 kbps.  Shared between about 100 incoming connections, so ~2kbps per incoming peer.
303 2012-07-27 13:11:19 <sturles> My home ADSL is only 640 kbps out, and my IP phone stops working if I don't throttle.
304 2012-07-27 13:30:25 <gavinandresen> sturles, you should run with -maxconnections=10
305 2012-07-27 13:30:40 <gavinandresen> ... or maybe even -nolisten
306 2012-07-27 13:31:00 <gavinandresen> you're not helping the network if you're responding really slowly to peer requests
307 2012-07-27 13:31:45 <sturles> Good point.  I want to help the network, but it is probably best to limit the number of connections when my bandwidh is low.
308 2012-07-27 13:34:44 <sturles> I have 8 addnodes to known well connected nodes which are less likely to download several blocks in a row, and those are not throttled.
309 2012-07-27 13:35:28 <sturles> This reduces the likelyhood of my new blocks getting orphaned as well.
310 2012-07-27 14:08:43 <mcorlett> Is bitcoinwatch.com's custom bitcoin daemon publicly available?
311 2012-07-27 14:14:32 <gavinandresen> http://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/  is now testnet3
312 2012-07-27 14:49:43 <killerstorm> Lolcust: hi
313 2012-07-27 14:49:54 <Lolcust> Hi killerstorm!
314 2012-07-27 14:49:56 <mb300sd> whats a good addnode for testnet3? Its just sitting at 0 connections
315 2012-07-27 14:52:54 <killerstorm> So, yeah, I'm considering making an alt chain. Unless I'll get scared of it...
316 2012-07-27 14:53:20 <gmaxwell> mb300sd: there are working nodes in IRC, so it should do okay on its own.
317 2012-07-27 15:27:52 <Lolcust> killerstorm got my PMs ?
318 2012-07-27 15:50:29 <user> hi, i'm on a nokia n800 and
319 2012-07-27 15:51:10 <user> i need an ewallet that is avle to import sipa private key format
320 2012-07-27 15:51:18 <user> anyone know?
321 2012-07-27 15:51:25 <user> able
322 2012-07-27 19:13:00 <MC-Eeepc> is there any way of doing a portable install of bitcoin
323 2012-07-27 19:13:06 <MC-Eeepc> on a usb drive
324 2012-07-27 19:14:42 <helo> live usb ;)
325 2012-07-27 19:19:12 <MC-Eeepc> no, just bitcoin
326 2012-07-27 19:20:04 <helo> if the host OS is set up just right, it will work
327 2012-07-27 19:44:26 <MC-Eeepc> well thats not very portable
328 2012-07-27 19:50:58 <helo> what OSes (and versions) do you want to be able to "plug and run" it on?
329 2012-07-27 19:53:45 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: portable means you can easily compile it for new platforms. bitcoin is already fairly portable.
330 2012-07-27 19:54:01 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: and you don't want to carry it to random computers on a USB stick; that's a security disaster
331 2012-07-27 19:54:47 <MC-Eeepc> only on my machines
332 2012-07-27 19:56:26 <MC-Eeepc> it would be good if there was a way to unlock your wallet safely on an untrusted machine i suppose
333 2012-07-27 19:56:32 <helo> not possible
334 2012-07-27 19:56:51 <MC-Eeepc> probably not
335 2012-07-27 19:57:24 <helo> if you need access to your wallet in arbitrary locations, you'll probably have to use a mobile phone client
336 2012-07-27 20:55:44 <midnightmagic> why is there a small portion of my testnet block reward going to mzW2hdZN2um7WBvTDerdahKqRgj3md9C29 ?
337 2012-07-27 20:58:06 <midnightmagic> must be p2pool. cool!
338 2012-07-27 21:10:34 <mb300sd> I still can't seem to connect to testnet3, have 10 connections for 3 hours and 0 blocks
339 2012-07-27 21:15:34 <midnightmagic> mb300sd: do you have git log reference a9d811a9760720d29eb1be3b738e59a1621cc6d6 ?
340 2012-07-27 21:15:44 <midnightmagic> commitid, whatever
341 2012-07-27 21:16:59 <mb300sd> not sure, I compiled the latest from here, https://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin/trees/coincontrol
342 2012-07-27 21:17:13 <luke-jr> mb300sd: that's not meant to be compiled directly.
343 2012-07-27 21:17:40 <luke-jr> for the vast majority of my branches, you're supposed to checkout master and merge it
344 2012-07-27 21:17:45 <mb300sd> i meant this one, https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin/trees/0.6.x+coincontrol
345 2012-07-27 21:17:52 <luke-jr> that isn't maintained
346 2012-07-27 21:18:19 <mb300sd> yeah, I need to switch my code to use raw tx
347 2012-07-27 21:18:45 <mb300sd> well, it works for now, i'll play with testnet later
348 2012-07-27 21:19:06 <midnightmagic> mb300sd: testnet3 has a new message identifier as of the commitid I mentioned. you'll have to get it from the normal bitcoind repository unless luke has a branch somewhere where he merged that change in
349 2012-07-27 21:21:39 <mb300sd> I guess its not in the version i'm running.. i'll just wait to play with testnet until I mod my other code to work with raw tx instead of coin control
350 2012-07-27 21:21:42 <midnightmagic> boo, testnet3 has a special testnet3 difficulty rule
351 2012-07-27 21:22:01 <midnightmagic> when did that come in? lol
352 2012-07-27 21:22:06 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: during testnet2.
353 2012-07-27 21:22:18 <gmaxwell> don't boo. it makes testnet not freeking useless.
354 2012-07-27 21:22:19 <luke-jr> lol
355 2012-07-27 21:22:46 <midnightmagic> it's also a divergence from main
356 2012-07-27 21:22:56 <gmaxwell> Yes, which makes it regretful.
357 2012-07-27 21:23:31 <gmaxwell> But basically no one was using testnet at all because someone would get testnet crazy, drive the difficulty to 40.. then leave and we'd go a week without a block.
358 2012-07-27 21:24:11 <midnightmagic> i just wanted a bunch of testnet coins while difficulty was low :)
359 2012-07-27 21:24:23 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I'll give you a bunch.
360 2012-07-27 21:24:58 <gmaxwell> and the difficulty will likely not get much higher than it is now.
361 2012-07-27 21:25:21 <midnightmagic> well it's okay now, i'm going to punch it up to .. hrm.. perhaps 12090 ..
362 2012-07-27 21:25:29 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: testnet has 2 purposes which require this compromise :P
363 2012-07-27 21:25:55 <luke-jr> besides testing the code, it also aims to be useful for merchants/services/etc to test their stuff without spending real bitcoins
364 2012-07-27 21:26:11 <luke-jr> (ideally publicly accessible)
365 2012-07-27 21:26:34 <luke-jr> so for example, I should be able to go to testnet.MtGox.com and play around
366 2012-07-27 21:26:39 <luke-jr> (hint hint MagicalTux :P)
367 2012-07-27 21:27:02 <midnightmagic> yes, please raise up an exchange so we can laugh at all the losers who whine when testnet4 comes along!
368 2012-07-27 21:27:30 <midnightmagic> "reset time, stop trading testnet coins"
369 2012-07-27 21:27:36 <MagicalTux> :??
370 2012-07-27 21:28:03 <gmaxwell> Well it really should be the case that services should support testnet: it gives their service more testing, and it lets potential customers try it out.
371 2012-07-27 21:28:04 <midnightmagic> MagicalTux: I'm just saying that enabling an exchange on testnet coins will impart value to them.
372 2012-07-27 21:28:18 <MagicalTux> midnightmagic: unless you can only trade against TESTUSD
373 2012-07-27 21:28:22 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it wouldn't be a real exchange. exchange with TESTUSD.
374 2012-07-27 21:28:27 <gmaxwell> _exactly_.
375 2012-07-27 21:28:41 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: well, testnet.mtgox.com as I envision it would not use real fiat either :P
376 2012-07-27 21:28:55 <gmaxwell> I'd have fun printing out testusd to mail to people. :)
377 2012-07-27 21:29:13 <midnightmagic> MagicalTux: it'll be a small value, but it'll be a value. :)
378 2012-07-27 21:29:37 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: It won't matter. People were willing to trade btc for large volumes of testnet coins on testnet 1 and 2.
379 2012-07-27 21:29:50 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: does Dwolla have a testnet? :p
380 2012-07-27 21:30:00 <MagicalTux> luke-jr: not that I know of
381 2012-07-27 21:30:02 <MagicalTux> paypal does
382 2012-07-27 21:30:12 <luke-jr> yeah, but MtGox doesn't support paypal&
383 2012-07-27 21:30:20 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: yea, and if that starts impeading testusage we'll reset again.
384 2012-07-27 21:30:28 <MagicalTux> yea, and paypal's system won't allow test accounts to communicate with other people's test accounts
385 2012-07-27 21:30:39 <luke-jr> oh
386 2012-07-27 21:30:48 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: lame :-X
387 2012-07-27 21:31:22 <MagicalTux> we've been considering a test mtgox using bitcoin testnet
388 2012-07-27 21:31:32 <MagicalTux> with interface for people to modify their usd/etc balances freely
389 2012-07-27 21:31:47 <MagicalTux> (except TBTC)
390 2012-07-27 21:32:35 <MagicalTux> most difficult part is ensure that people will not get scammed by other people pretending to pay them with TESTUSD
391 2012-07-27 21:32:43 <MagicalTux> is to*
392 2012-07-27 21:42:37 <jgarzik> would be nice, if mtgox was on testnet
393 2012-07-27 21:42:42 <jgarzik> SD, not so much ;)
394 2012-07-27 21:43:00 <andyrossy> xD
395 2012-07-27 21:43:05 <luke-jr> jgarzik: hey, if SD were to switch to (only) testnet, that'd be awesome!
396 2012-07-27 21:43:06 <andyrossy> or satoshidice on testnet?
397 2012-07-27 21:43:08 <andyrossy> o.O
398 2012-07-27 21:43:34 <andyrossy> i'd love to see what would happen if i sent statoshi dice mega mirrion of bets
399 2012-07-27 23:08:33 <MC-Eeepc> guys listen
400 2012-07-27 23:08:44 <MC-Eeepc> what if we took the blockchain
401 2012-07-27 23:08:47 <MC-Eeepc> guys
402 2012-07-27 23:08:54 <MC-Eeepc> and put it in a DHT
403 2012-07-27 23:09:08 <gmaxwell> ...
404 2012-07-27 23:09:09 <upb> lol
405 2012-07-27 23:09:54 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: you've not been around long enough to have heard me lament that the substring "DHT" (at least in here) is a reliable doofus detection criteria, I guess? :)
406 2012-07-27 23:10:22 <MC-Eeepc> did your doofus detector go off
407 2012-07-27 23:11:16 <gmaxwell> It's just that DHT's don't do much for any of the challenges we actually have, and even if they did they have their own problems (attack resistance foremost among them).
408 2012-07-27 23:11:17 <jgarzik> we could script it
409 2012-07-27 23:11:29 <jgarzik> "DHTbot", which does nothing but wait for that substring and rofl
410 2012-07-27 23:11:34 <gmaxwell> But they're the _only_ kind of distributed system a lot of people have heard about, so they get randomly suggested a lot.
411 2012-07-27 23:11:40 <jgarzik> make the bot distributed
412 2012-07-27 23:11:41 <MC-Eeepc> bittorrents dht is about 60gb of data, it will fit!
413 2012-07-27 23:12:15 <upb> gram bits?
414 2012-07-27 23:12:35 <MC-Eeepc> dont be silly
415 2012-07-27 23:15:24 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: something like that would be interesting if nodes needed random access to blocks (and if the attack resistance issues could be solved) but that isn't what nodes need.
416 2012-07-27 23:16:11 <MC-Eeepc> electrolytes is what nodes need
417 2012-07-27 23:17:34 <gmaxwell> s/need/crave/
418 2012-07-27 23:18:09 <MC-Eeepc> fag talk
419 2012-07-27 23:18:25 <MC-Eeepc> i bet someone will fork it and throw a DHT in there eventually
420 2012-07-27 23:18:33 <gmaxwell> And a spoiler too.
421 2012-07-27 23:18:42 <gmaxwell> I hear your fork has bitchin rims.
422 2012-07-27 23:18:57 <MC-Eeepc> fukin a
423 2012-07-27 23:19:44 <MC-Eeepc> fuck how can my cat be purring and biting me at the same time
424 2012-07-27 23:19:52 <MC-Eeepc> little motherfucker lulled me in
425 2012-07-27 23:20:18 <gmaxwell> cats also purr when they're in pain.
426 2012-07-27 23:20:42 <MC-Eeepc> well shes not
427 2012-07-27 23:20:50 <MC-Eeepc> but i am
428 2012-07-27 23:21:10 <gmaxwell> acasual sympathy pain, your cat is a precog.
429 2012-07-27 23:21:17 <MC-Eeepc> god damn bdsm cat
430 2012-07-27 23:30:40 <MC-Eeepc> whats the optimal number of random peer connections for the shortest amount of hops from one edge of the nextwork to the other
431 2012-07-27 23:31:02 <MC-Eeepc> is it 8 or the hundred plus whn you have open port