1 2013-01-08 01:13:24 <SeN> hello
2 2013-01-08 01:14:17 <MC1984> sup
3 2013-01-08 01:14:54 <SeN> i'm new and might have a nice idea for the use of bitcoin
4 2013-01-08 01:15:18 <SeN> but I have a problem, I'm no nerd:(
5 2013-01-08 01:15:24 <MC1984> ok
6 2013-01-08 01:15:58 <SeN> I'm just a financial guy trying to become a auditor in the netherlands
7 2013-01-08 01:16:11 <Azelphur> Is there any way to hook incoming transactions through bitcoind somehow, or do you have to poll?
8 2013-01-08 01:18:19 <SeN> So I'm looking for someone who can help me realize my business idea
9 2013-01-08 01:18:51 <zapsoda> SeN, I might be intrested, Want to message me?
10 2013-01-08 01:20:01 <SeN> do i do that with dcc/chat?
11 2013-01-08 01:20:40 <zapsoda> DCC isnt working for me you can email it to me at Zapsoda@gmail.com and you can msg me with /query zapsoda or /msg zapsoda <message>
12 2013-01-08 01:25:11 <ne0futur> SeN: tell us a little bit more about your idea if you want to find serious partners
13 2013-01-08 01:25:42 <ne0futur> also not sure #bitcoin-dev is the best place to ask, you should try to ask on #bitcoin , #bitcoin-hosting , #bitcoin-otc
14 2013-01-08 01:25:49 <ne0futur> here is more about bitcoin development
15 2013-01-08 01:26:55 <Azelphur> ACTION pokes people with his development question :P
16 2013-01-08 01:37:02 <SeN> i think i might be able to turn bitcoin into legal tender, but like i said, i'm just a newbie to all this
17 2013-01-08 01:37:52 <MC1984> only the govt an decree that
18 2013-01-08 01:39:41 <Luke-Jr> SeN: I'm not sure if Netherlands might be different, but in the USA (and I presume most countries?), "legal tender" means you can pay taxes and court judgements with it
19 2013-01-08 01:40:20 <SeN> exactly
20 2013-01-08 01:40:36 <Dr-X> why would someone want that?
21 2013-01-08 01:40:53 <Luke-Jr> Dr-X: as long as you need to pay taxes in fiat currency, you can never live on Bitcoins alone
22 2013-01-08 01:41:59 <Dr-X> exchange it. As long as bitcoin is not legal tender, you can gamble with it, etc.
23 2013-01-08 01:42:08 <Luke-Jr> Dr-X: um, no. it doesn't work like that.
24 2013-01-08 01:42:25 <SeN> to reduce transaction costs
25 2013-01-08 01:42:34 <Luke-Jr> Dr-X: you have to follow all the same regulations on money even if you're using Bitcoin
26 2013-01-08 01:43:05 <Luke-Jr> Dr-X: including paying taxes on Bitcoin income - but you still have to pay the tax using legal tender
27 2013-01-08 01:43:27 <Luke-Jr> Dr-X: really sounds like you should be chatting with a lawyer
28 2013-01-08 01:43:50 <Luke-Jr> (for the record, I am *not* a lawyer myself, nor is this legal advice???)
29 2013-01-08 01:44:47 <Dr-X> lol no I shouldn't
30 2013-01-08 01:44:49 <MC1984> i dont know if being able to pay taxes in btc would be the beginning or the end of bitcoin
31 2013-01-08 01:45:02 <SomeoneWeird> bad
32 2013-01-08 01:46:20 <Dr-X> When gambling with bitcoins is illegal, so is playing monopoly with your family.
33 2013-01-08 01:46:21 <SeN> i am the lawyer in this case
34 2013-01-08 01:47:14 <Luke-Jr> Dr-X: except monopoly money isn't traded as currency anywhere
35 2013-01-08 01:47:47 <Luke-Jr> SeN: well, usually mere lawyers can't change the law regarding payment of court judgements or taxes ;)
36 2013-01-08 01:47:53 <Dr-X> well you can buy monopoly money I sell you 100,000k for 13$
37 2013-01-08 01:48:08 <Luke-Jr> Dr-X: judges aren't fools
38 2013-01-08 01:48:20 <etotheipi_> Dr-X: if that were true, then no casinos would need any licenses.... since they're not using cash, but these "value-less" pieces of plastic chips
39 2013-01-08 01:48:21 <Dr-X> well they are
40 2013-01-08 01:48:51 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: exactly. even Second Life had to deal with gambling regulations since their Linden Dollars are convertable to regular currency
41 2013-01-08 01:48:57 <Dr-X> yes, but they are obligated to change them back into money
42 2013-01-08 01:49:33 <etotheipi_> Dr-X: it's not the obligation to change it back to money, it's the fact that they have value
43 2013-01-08 01:49:41 <Luke-Jr> (Linden addressed the problem by removing any random factors from SL, IIRC - thus no more gambling aspect)
44 2013-01-08 01:49:42 <etotheipi_> they have value because the casino will change them back for you
45 2013-01-08 01:49:53 <Dr-X> you bought those chips in the casino
46 2013-01-08 01:49:56 <etotheipi_> Bitcoin has value because other people are willing to buy them from you, even though they're not obligated to
47 2013-01-08 01:50:12 <Dr-X> I didn't buy bitcoins, I got them for free, like I got the monopoly money in monopoly
48 2013-01-08 01:50:22 <etotheipi_> nm, I'm done here
49 2013-01-08 01:50:26 <Luke-Jr> Dr-X: anyhow, expect to land in a world of pain someday if you don't talk to a lawyer about it (or at least behave reasonably).
50 2013-01-08 01:50:31 <SomeoneWeird> x_X
51 2013-01-08 01:51:03 <Dr-X> well I expect to be arrested playing monopoly with my family
52 2013-01-08 01:51:32 <Luke-Jr> SeN: anyhow, you should probably go into more detail on your idea here; PMs aren't really necessary in most cases
53 2013-01-08 01:51:32 <MC1984> pack lube
54 2013-01-08 01:52:11 <gmaxwell> This is all pretty offtopic for #bitcoin-dev... to #bitcoin with all of you!
55 2013-01-08 01:52:18 <SomeoneWeird> lol
56 2013-01-08 01:52:32 <Dr-X> chat police ^^ :p
57 2013-01-08 01:54:30 <SeN> sry
58 2013-01-08 02:45:47 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
59 2013-01-08 02:45:47 <nanotube> ;;later tell gavinandresen here's your reminder to look into GSOC! :)
60 2013-01-08 04:30:00 <stealth222> BlueMatt: you need more HD space?
61 2013-01-08 05:34:56 <casascius> I have just announced an iPhone app for BIP 38 encrypted paper wallets: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135293.0
62 2013-01-08 05:35:22 <stealth222> nice, casascius
63 2013-01-08 06:39:29 <stealth222> I'm trying to clean up main.h/main.cpp. I'd like to create separate source files core.h/core.cpp which define the basic bitcoin message structures. I want to keep all verification/block chain management stuff completely separate. As far as these basic message structures are concerned, scripts are just blobs.
64 2013-01-08 06:40:03 <stealth222> I'd also like to separate the block chain engine from main
65 2013-01-08 06:44:55 <stealth222> *crickets chirping*
66 2013-01-08 06:52:35 <weex> stealth222: you might want to create an issue in the github.com/bitcoin project or post to the development mailing list
67 2013-01-08 06:52:50 <weex> this is more of a hangout and isn't so active late in the evening
68 2013-01-08 06:53:50 <stealth222> I like the quick interactive back and forth here sometimes - but yeah, this might merit posting something to the mailing list
69 2013-01-08 10:01:32 <rphlx> hi.. what's the reasoning behind generated coins taking ~20X longer to confirm than regular transactions?
70 2013-01-08 10:03:39 <kinlo> if the blockchain gets reverted due to an other chain being better, the generation transaction becomes invalid, hence the coins are not valid. A transaction that does not rely on newly generted coins can still be valid. At least that's how I understood it, I'm sure someone will correct me if it's wrong :)
71 2013-01-08 10:04:03 <sipa> rphlx: it's not 120 blocks to confirm, it is 120 blocks before the can be spent at all (vs 0 for normal ones)
72 2013-01-08 10:04:36 <rphlx> sorry. s/confirm/mature.
73 2013-01-08 10:04:51 <rphlx> still, i don't understand why such a large delay is required.
74 2013-01-08 10:05:18 <sipa> and thebreason is indeed that a reorganization makes coinbase inevitably invalid, and this happens without any malicious intent
75 2013-01-08 10:06:09 <sipa> and this would cause any transactions depending on it to become irrevocably invalid as well
76 2013-01-08 10:06:59 <sipa> while for a normal transaction to become invalid after a reorg, it must be double spent
77 2013-01-08 10:09:00 <rphlx> understood. i guess i am wondering how the specific constant (120 blocks) was chosen.
78 2013-01-08 10:09:10 <rphlx> it seems quite unlikely for a blockchain to be orphaned after more than a couple blocks.
79 2013-01-08 10:10:46 <sipa> yeah, it's probably overly cautious
80 2013-01-08 10:10:57 <BTCOxygen> d
81 2013-01-08 10:30:40 <TD_> rphlx: the costs of picking a number too low are huge and the costs of picking a number "too high" are practically zero
82 2013-01-08 10:32:39 <rphlx> that is certainly true. still, i imagine someone did some math to arrive at exactly 120. why not 60? or 240?
83 2013-01-08 10:35:01 <sipa> satoshi guessed a lot of numbers :)
84 2013-01-08 10:35:22 <sipa> the network rule is 100, by the way
85 2013-01-08 10:35:23 <rphlx> well, he had pretty good taste, i would say.
86 2013-01-08 10:35:30 <phantomcircuit> sipa, CLEARLY HE IS MAGIC
87 2013-01-08 10:35:35 <sipa> the client enforces another 20
88 2013-01-08 10:35:47 <sipa> 101, actually
89 2013-01-08 10:35:59 <rphlx> why would the client enforce more than the network?
90 2013-01-08 10:36:08 <rphlx> that is sort of against the user's best interests.
91 2013-01-08 10:36:40 <rphlx> just encourges ppl to change it locally & build their own client binaries.
92 2013-01-08 10:48:45 <stealth222> if nobody will relay the transaction, it doesn't really matter if you make your own custom build
93 2013-01-08 12:18:19 <pigeons> etotheipi_: will armory be able to use leveldb blockchain soon?
94 2013-01-08 12:21:05 <sipa> pigeons: the blockchain isn't stored in leveldb
95 2013-01-08 12:21:28 <sipa> (in bitcoind, that is)
96 2013-01-08 12:22:03 <pigeons> ok
97 2013-01-08 12:22:26 <pigeons> what format did it change to recently that i had to re-import it
98 2013-01-08 12:22:51 <sipa> no change at all
99 2013-01-08 12:22:58 <sipa> the indexes changed, and you needed to reindex
100 2013-01-08 12:23:06 <sipa> and the filenames changed
101 2013-01-08 12:23:29 <pigeons> ok. now i have a blocks directory, they are still berkley?
102 2013-01-08 12:25:06 <sipa> blocks are and have always been just blocks
103 2013-01-08 12:25:10 <sipa> they are not a database
104 2013-01-08 12:25:16 <pigeons> thank you
105 2013-01-08 12:25:18 <sipa> just files with concatenated blocks in network format
106 2013-01-08 12:29:10 <kinlo> sipa: wasn't the block-chain-fileset going to be limited to 200mb instead of 2 gb?
107 2013-01-08 12:29:28 <kinlo> oh well, still running 0.6 on some places, need to upgrade asap
108 2013-01-08 12:30:06 <sipa> kinlo: yes, smaller files with different names
109 2013-01-08 12:30:09 <sipa> kinlo: but same format
110 2013-01-08 12:30:19 <sipa> limited to 128 MiB in the current code, even
111 2013-01-08 12:30:21 <kinlo> sipa: so an upgrade will rewrite that?
112 2013-01-08 12:30:44 <kinlo> it's better for backups that do their incrementals based on files in any case
113 2013-01-08 12:30:46 <sipa> there's a hacky solution that tries hardlinking the old files to the new location
114 2013-01-08 12:30:48 <kinlo> less delta
115 2013-01-08 12:30:53 <sipa> not eyt merged
116 2013-01-08 12:31:02 <sipa> but it's fast and easy :)
117 2013-01-08 12:31:23 <kinlo> mmmz, wouldn't it be nice to just migrate the old data to a new directory, leaving the old directory in the original format?
118 2013-01-08 12:31:52 <sipa> you know what a hardlink does?
119 2013-01-08 12:32:20 <kinlo> I'm very good with linux, so yes
120 2013-01-08 12:32:38 <kinlo> but given that you are going to switch to 128mb files, a copy wouldn't seem too bad
121 2013-01-08 12:32:48 <sipa> it does exactly that, but doesn't require duplication
122 2013-01-08 12:32:56 <kinlo> so the files would immediatly in the smaller file sizes
123 2013-01-08 12:33:26 <kinlo> so after a migration you'd have 2 large files and several small ones
124 2013-01-08 12:33:41 <kinlo> if you do the hardlink way
125 2013-01-08 12:34:12 <kinlo> but then, to make it worse, people might start an old version, expanding the 3th file
126 2013-01-08 12:34:14 <sipa> i don't think many people will like bitcoin suddenly requiring 2x as much storage, and needed a manual delete to fix it
127 2013-01-08 12:34:29 <kinlo> while with the new version, a new file would have been created
128 2013-01-08 12:34:59 <kinlo> so when the new version would be started, several blocks would be double in the database
129 2013-01-08 12:36:32 <kinlo> you're correct that bitcoin should not require twice the place, but hardlinking means that when you use either copy of the database, files will be modified outside the scope of the program (as seen from the other version)
130 2013-01-08 12:37:15 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: -reindex at least works on LDB :P
131 2013-01-08 12:37:38 <kinlo> imho, either you do a full copy and keep 2 versions of the database, or you do a move, deleting the old copy
132 2013-01-08 12:38:04 <kinlo> given the fact that you can always safely delete all files if you keep wallet.dat, I'd go for the bold move...
133 2013-01-08 12:40:09 <Luke-Jr> I'd opt to hard link IMO
134 2013-01-08 12:42:29 <sipa> kinlo: the files are append-only, nothing breaks if just one side appends to files
135 2013-01-08 12:42:40 <kinlo> true
136 2013-01-08 12:43:04 <sipa> even if both sides keep appending to it
137 2013-01-08 12:44:16 <sipa> actually, it would, because 0.8 doesn't append - it uses the first free space (according to its own view) instead of appending
138 2013-01-08 12:45:05 <sipa> but 0.8 will not append anything to the old files, as they are over 128 MiB
139 2013-01-08 12:58:41 <gavinandresen> there's a tiny window where it could be a problem, when we get to the end of blk0003.dat. And somebody upgrades and then runs both old and new versions. But that's just not a case I care about
140 2013-01-08 13:01:05 <kinlo> why not just only keep the wallet.dat from the old bitcoin version?
141 2013-01-08 13:01:38 <sipa> why force people to redownload data they already have, in exactly the format we support?
142 2013-01-08 13:19:35 <gavinandresen> hey, I know, lets keep on talking about this for a few hours instead of pulling the changes and helping test... more fun to talk than to test!
143 2013-01-08 13:19:50 <gavinandresen> ACTION is grumpy this morning
144 2013-01-08 13:24:00 <nanotube> gavinandresen: got my gribble msg? :)
145 2013-01-08 13:24:22 <gavinandresen> nanotube: yes, couldn't for the life of me figure out what GSOC was last night. Remembered this morning.
146 2013-01-08 13:25:38 <gavinandresen> nanotube: I'm still feeling overwhelmed by my TODO list, so if you can, or can find somebody, to manage the GSOC process that is probably the only way it will get done
147 2013-01-08 13:29:33 <nanotube> haha well a google lucky search would have clued you in if you were to have tried it :)
148 2013-01-08 13:30:09 <nanotube> hm, i'll try to dig into it and see what's up
149 2013-01-08 13:36:54 <MC1984> casascius thinking of doing an android app too?
150 2013-01-08 13:44:24 <gmaxwell> 03:36 < rphlx> why would the client enforce more than the network?
151 2013-01-08 13:44:44 <gmaxwell> Because if you spend right at the limit your transaction will relay poorly and you'll be confused when it doesn't get mined.
152 2013-01-08 13:45:06 <gmaxwell> Now adays this could be satisfied with a limit at 101/102, though.
153 2013-01-08 13:45:29 <gmaxwell> 03:09 < rphlx> it seems quite unlikely for a blockchain to be orphaned after more than a couple blocks.
154 2013-01-08 13:46:07 <gmaxwell> The orphaning is catagorically different than any other kind of orphaning??? it as it can leave you _unable_ to pay even if you're honest.
155 2013-01-08 13:47:42 <gmaxwell> In the event of a partitioning it prevents funds from being spent that honest people can't replace (admittedly a bigger issue at diff1), and it means that an attacker who mines a short fork to use in attack can't use coins they just mined to do it unless their attack is > 100 blocks long.
156 2013-01-08 13:48:24 <gmaxwell> So .. yea. what number is best for the limit? who knows??? but there is basically no cost in making it high.
157 2013-01-08 13:48:41 <gmaxwell> as far as the 120??? meh "03:37 < rphlx> just encourges ppl to change it locally & build their own client binaries.
158 2013-01-08 13:48:45 <gmaxwell> " sounds good to me!
159 2013-01-08 14:05:45 <casascius> MC1984: I wrote the iPhone app with Monotouch so I could use my C# code from the utility I wrote for Windows. All of the object model code worked without modification, so the only thing I had to do was create UI. Could do the same with Android
160 2013-01-08 14:07:11 <casascius> The only real drawback is that Monotouch is payware, making it difficult to get community compiling and improvements
161 2013-01-08 14:21:26 <MC1984> will nocheckpoints=1 in bitcoin.conf work
162 2013-01-08 14:21:43 <MC1984> all launch args work the same in bitcoin.onf right
163 2013-01-08 14:24:59 <sipa> yes
164 2013-01-08 14:25:01 <sipa> will work
165 2013-01-08 14:27:25 <helo> ACTION appends 'datadir=/home/helo/.bitcoin-ultraprune'
166 2013-01-08 14:44:23 <MC1984> nocheckpoints doesnt seem too bad
167 2013-01-08 14:45:00 <MC1984> it got sompletely stuck on block 73000 something just now though
168 2013-01-08 14:45:37 <MC1984> and the estimated total blocks is 107868 :/
169 2013-01-08 14:48:55 <headcase2> anyone hear
170 2013-01-08 15:30:55 <jgarzik> https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=954.0 bASIC now estimated mid-March
171 2013-01-08 15:35:01 <helo> seems the bitcoin value increase would make a refund pretty compelling at this point
172 2013-01-08 15:39:47 <gmaxwell> helo: the refunds are in dollars.
173 2013-01-08 15:40:11 <gmaxwell> e.g. you get $saleprice worth of coins back.
174 2013-01-08 15:40:22 <helo> ouch :/
175 2013-01-08 15:41:11 <helo> that'll teach people not to spend bitcoin
176 2013-01-08 15:41:12 <gmaxwell> hm? why ouch? it's just the same as having sold your coins at the time of sale. No biggie.
177 2013-01-08 15:41:31 <gmaxwell> If you didn't want your bitcoin holdings to go down you would have bought more coin at the same time.
178 2013-01-08 15:44:29 <helo> i suppose bASIC probably sold the bitcoin to guard against potential value drops
179 2013-01-08 15:46:30 <helo> just kind of sad that it will take $SUPERLONGTIME to break even
180 2013-01-08 15:52:47 <Diapolo> wumpus: Are you on?
181 2013-01-08 15:54:26 <Diapolo> sipa: What about that leveldb1.7 branch and my last comments (the one about Winver and that little "-too much)?
182 2013-01-08 15:55:00 <sipa> Diapolo: people in #mingw told me we need -static to get rid of the dependency on libssp.dll
183 2013-01-08 15:55:07 <sipa> alternative is shipping that dll file of course
184 2013-01-08 15:55:10 <sipa> haven't tried yet
185 2013-01-08 15:55:54 <Diapolo> sipa: Another new -static in addition to the ones already there or am I missing something?
186 2013-01-08 15:56:21 <sipa> Diapolo: no clue
187 2013-01-08 15:58:00 <Diapolo> I also saw that dependency on mingw\\bin\\LIBSSP-0.DLL and thought about how to get rid of it though.
188 2013-01-08 15:58:34 <Diapolo> for my local build I have given up the work on a true static build ;) too time consuming
189 2013-01-08 16:04:36 <Diapolo> sipa: LOL I found this one, where gmaxwell already participated: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=822312
190 2013-01-08 16:05:43 <sipa> ha
191 2013-01-08 16:08:34 <Diapolo> So -Wl,-static -lssp doesn't work, even with the new compiler suite?
192 2013-01-08 16:09:12 <wumpus> Diapolo: yes
193 2013-01-08 16:10:00 <Diapolo> wumpus: hey mate :) I'm currently creating a screenie for you showing the differences with qSort() and without
194 2013-01-08 16:10:48 <wumpus> Diapolo: the list is *supposed* to remain in sorted order at all times, sure if you say there's a bug there I believe you
195 2013-01-08 16:13:05 <Diapolo> just a sec I'll upload to Github
196 2013-01-08 16:14:03 <Diapolo> wumpus: done
197 2013-01-08 16:16:01 <wumpus> yeah that's very clear
198 2013-01-08 16:16:45 <Diapolo> it was pretty damn ugly to debug that stuff for me bzw. ^^
199 2013-01-08 16:17:39 <wumpus> hehe well you managed to sort it out that's great
200 2013-01-08 16:18:51 <Diapolo> thanks :)
201 2013-01-08 16:19:19 <Diapolo> you have currently very little free time? but it's nice to see you
202 2013-01-08 16:22:34 <wumpus> yes...
203 2013-01-08 16:24:16 <Diapolo> sometimes I would love to see another Qt capable core dev ^^
204 2013-01-08 16:27:54 <wumpus> well I suppose if there were to be another GUI core dev the obvious candidate would be you
205 2013-01-08 16:29:21 <MC1984> pay in BTC refund in dolla dolla
206 2013-01-08 16:29:22 <MC1984> fuck that
207 2013-01-08 16:29:25 <Diapolo> that honors me, but I don't consider my skills anywhere near to be such a dev
208 2013-01-08 16:30:09 <Diapolo> as long as you are able to merge stuff that is correct I'm fine for the moment then :)
209 2013-01-08 16:31:50 <wumpus> sure, I'll keep reading pull requests, testing them and merging them
210 2013-01-08 16:33:59 <Diapolo> What is the best way to ping you for important stuff? Via IRC here?
211 2013-01-08 16:34:47 <wumpus> either that or send me a mail, that'll work for sure
212 2013-01-08 16:35:22 <Diapolo> yeah that's fine
213 2013-01-08 16:35:37 <wumpus> I generally see pings here too, but usually by that time you've left already :P
214 2013-01-08 16:38:48 <Diapolo> I only join when I want to talk ^^
215 2013-01-08 16:40:21 <wumpus> ^^
216 2013-01-08 16:41:24 <sipa> ... why?
217 2013-01-08 16:41:51 <Diapolo> it would also be nice to get some insight on what part you think needs most love or which bug is most serious, I'm fine if you give some hints here and there and I'll take a look, when I have time and fun left
218 2013-01-08 16:42:04 <wumpus> the bugs assigned to me are most serious
219 2013-01-08 16:42:07 <Diapolo> sipa: because my PC is not on 24/7
220 2013-01-08 16:42:16 <sipa> Diapolo: neither is mine :p
221 2013-01-08 16:42:17 <wumpus> :P
222 2013-01-08 16:42:31 <Diapolo> i never understood, why idling in a channel would be a good idea
223 2013-01-08 16:42:48 <sipa> be able to read backlogs easily, or jump in when things are interesting
224 2013-01-08 16:43:18 <Diapolo> sipa: I like to focus on things, play a game, code or read in here ^^
225 2013-01-08 16:44:20 <wumpus> neither is mine, but I run quassel on a server, so my user remains on all the time and I can always connect, and read back when someone highlighted me
226 2013-01-08 16:45:24 <Diapolo> quassel sounds rather german, lol
227 2013-01-08 16:46:31 <wumpus> it's a great program
228 2013-01-08 16:46:54 <wumpus> and the gui is Qt too :)
229 2013-01-08 16:48:28 <wumpus> there's even an android client
230 2013-01-08 16:48:46 <MobPhone> what client
231 2013-01-08 16:48:50 <MobPhone> android
232 2013-01-08 16:49:44 <Diapolo> wumpus: I'll take a look at it :)
233 2013-01-08 16:50:24 <Diapolo> hey they are at 0.8 already sipa: what takes us so long ^^?
234 2013-01-08 16:51:22 <MobPhone> wumpus what is the name of the android app
235 2013-01-08 16:51:50 <wumpus> MobPhone: quasseldroid
236 2013-01-08 16:52:00 <wumpus> Diapolo:that's not fair though, they started a loong time ago
237 2013-01-08 16:53:01 <Diapolo> :)
238 2013-01-08 16:53:55 <Pucilowski> Will using bitcoind via the RPC interface allow me to transfer unconfirmed balances in a similar nature to how blockchain.info does?
239 2013-01-08 16:54:30 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: explain?
240 2013-01-08 16:54:44 <Pucilowski> Bitcoin-qt does not let you send unconfirmed funds
241 2013-01-08 16:54:57 <Pucilowski> Does bitcoind restrict this also?
242 2013-01-08 16:55:05 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: yes, it's non-trivial to not safely
243 2013-01-08 16:55:09 <Diapolo> sipa: it seems Tor added quite some DLLs to it's package did we ever consider such a thing?
244 2013-01-08 16:55:13 <Diapolo> http://archives.seul.org/or/cvs/Dec-2012/msg00193.html
245 2013-01-08 16:55:19 <Pucilowski> Luke-Jr: what do you mean?
246 2013-01-08 16:55:47 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs#CVE-2010-5140
247 2013-01-08 16:56:39 <Pucilowski> That seems to only be an issue if there's no incentive for miners to add a tx
248 2013-01-08 16:56:55 <Pucilowski> Does blockchain.info use a custom bitcoin implementation then?
249 2013-01-08 16:57:02 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: as far as I know, they do
250 2013-01-08 16:57:19 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: it's an issue if your unconfirmed coins never get confirmed
251 2013-01-08 16:57:25 <Luke-Jr> it will have a dominos effect
252 2013-01-08 16:57:36 <Pucilowski> not really what I'm asking about
253 2013-01-08 16:57:43 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt and bitcoind *will* let you spend unconfirmed coins you sent yourself, note
254 2013-01-08 16:57:56 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: well, that's why it's a hard problem to solve
255 2013-01-08 16:58:59 <Pucilowski> Is there a bitcoind fork that allows me to send unconfirmed funds?
256 2013-01-08 16:59:13 <Pucilowski> or something similar, a setting, anything?
257 2013-01-08 17:00:01 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: not afaik, but it shouldn't be hard to do
258 2013-01-08 17:00:07 <Luke-Jr> it's just asking for problems
259 2013-01-08 17:00:38 <Pucilowski> depends on circumstances
260 2013-01-08 17:02:29 <Dr-X> ;;ticker
261 2013-01-08 17:02:30 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 13.73407, Best ask: 13.80996, Bid-ask spread: 0.07589, Last trade: 13.68300, 24 hour volume: 46448.67401479, 24 hour low: 13.42200, 24 hour high: 13.83000, 24 hour vwap: 13.65164
262 2013-01-08 17:18:04 <Pucilowski> Luke-Jr: whats the default behaviour of bitcoind when it broadcasts a tx, does it send to every peer or a selection?
263 2013-01-08 17:21:19 <lianj> Pucilowski: sends a inv packet (announcing the tx hash) to everyone
264 2013-01-08 17:21:42 <lianj> peers that dont have it already ask or the tx to be send then
265 2013-01-08 17:24:46 <Pucilowski> i see, thanks
266 2013-01-08 17:50:57 <MC1984> ........you turn your computer off?
267 2013-01-08 17:58:18 <MC1984> that asic thread is so painful to read
268 2013-01-08 17:58:38 <MC1984> why the fuck cant anyone just ship the damn things
269 2013-01-08 17:59:09 <MC1984> theres even market competition fer christ sake, its not like its just bfl
270 2013-01-08 18:04:03 <JohnGalt> ;;tslb
271 2013-01-08 18:04:06 <gribble> Time since last block: 8 minutes and 8 seconds
272 2013-01-08 18:04:30 <BlueMatt> grau: ping
273 2013-01-08 18:04:35 <grau> pong
274 2013-01-08 18:04:48 <BlueMatt> sorry, keep seeing your messages but you keep being offline by the time im here
275 2013-01-08 18:04:50 <BlueMatt> anywhoo...
276 2013-01-08 18:05:09 <BlueMatt> what you're looking for is here: https://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/detail?r=8d318e905036be89d34cb543b347edde53f2cf40&name=newscripts
277 2013-01-08 18:05:59 <grau> Thanks a lot. I looked into the MANIFEST of the jar yesterday and found it via google
278 2013-01-08 18:06:37 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
279 2013-01-08 18:06:55 <grau> Your tester is nice.
280 2013-01-08 18:07:18 <grau> It compiles quite wierd scenarios
281 2013-01-08 18:07:50 <BlueMatt> thanks, i added a few more the other day, though nothing particularly interesting...there are still a number of things i want to hit (like more testing of the block timestamp acceptance stuff)
282 2013-01-08 18:08:04 <BlueMatt> and some of the other fun tests that are in testnet3
283 2013-01-08 18:08:18 <BlueMatt> though pull-tester hasn't been updated yet
284 2013-01-08 18:09:25 <grau> You formulate your test in code, while I would want to get others into a script, since your code depends on bitcoinj and so creator of new tests has to know that
285 2013-01-08 18:10:07 <grau> did you read our long chat with gmaxwell and sipa about that ? if what is your opinion on the approach I suggested?
286 2013-01-08 18:10:14 <grau> if not I am happy to repeat
287 2013-01-08 18:11:10 <BlueMatt> i did not, but...yea id like to export those blocks from bitcoinj to a generic json file with the blocks mined
288 2013-01-08 18:11:20 <BlueMatt> but there are still a few tests to add, so...i havent yet
289 2013-01-08 18:11:41 <grau> great! that is also my thinking
290 2013-01-08 18:11:49 <grau> I suggest not json but jbehave format
291 2013-01-08 18:12:00 <grau> look up jbehave.org if not yet familiar
292 2013-01-08 18:12:06 <BlueMatt> json is the format of all the other data-driven tests, so Id stick with the same
293 2013-01-08 18:12:17 <BlueMatt> (as you should be testing with the other data-driven tests too, so...)
294 2013-01-08 18:12:30 <grau> json can be the format of the data referred in the jbehave
295 2013-01-08 18:12:57 <stealth222> BlueMatt: I was getting disk space errors from your tester earlier
296 2013-01-08 18:13:11 <BlueMatt> yep, known issue
297 2013-01-08 18:13:15 <BlueMatt> removing old binaries...
298 2013-01-08 18:13:26 <BlueMatt> do you happen to have a list of pulls that need reset?
299 2013-01-08 18:13:34 <BlueMatt> I just know 2157 does
300 2013-01-08 18:13:40 <stealth222> 2156
301 2013-01-08 18:13:45 <BlueMatt> thanks
302 2013-01-08 18:13:47 <stealth222> err
303 2013-01-08 18:13:48 <stealth222> sorry
304 2013-01-08 18:13:53 <stealth222> 2154
305 2013-01-08 18:13:59 <BlueMatt> ok
306 2013-01-08 18:14:43 <BlueMatt> ok...removed bins/logs of tests older than 150 days, will reset
307 2013-01-08 18:15:41 <stealth222> sweet, thanks
308 2013-01-08 18:16:03 <grau> BlueMatt: are you with me on this: The data e.g. the blocks and transactions should be serialized in json. I suggest the jbehave format to describe how dose data are feeded and how feed links with expected responses. I also suggest to add more than black box testing using P2P but also using API to query internal state of the noode as it gets feed.
309 2013-01-08 18:16:31 <stealth222> I don't agree that the internal serialization should be json
310 2013-01-08 18:16:40 <stealth222> for RPC, sure
311 2013-01-08 18:16:42 <stealth222> but internally, no
312 2013-01-08 18:17:07 <grau> ou would prefer some wire hex dump ?
313 2013-01-08 18:17:18 <BlueMatt> its not inernal, its just test-cases...
314 2013-01-08 18:17:28 <BlueMatt> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/src/test/data
315 2013-01-08 18:17:45 <grau> Yes I use those too
316 2013-01-08 18:17:48 <stealth222> oh, that...yeah, just encountered it for the first time today
317 2013-01-08 18:18:14 <grau> so you would store the blocktester mined test chain in json ?
318 2013-01-08 18:18:21 <BlueMatt> grau: if you'd like to convert existing things to jbehave as an example, then Id be willing to format my tests that way (when i eventually create them......) however, i will probably be lazy and just do them in a similar format to those tests for now
319 2013-01-08 18:19:02 <grau> ok, I think its best you wait and see a complete example and then we discuss it again
320 2013-01-08 18:19:30 <BlueMatt> sounds good, Im also lazy and learning a new format... :)
321 2013-01-08 18:19:49 <gmaxwell> grau: have you run his tests against your code yet?
322 2013-01-08 18:19:58 <grau> I understand. Lazyness is the driver of big inventions for me too,
323 2013-01-08 18:20:09 <BlueMatt> (also, dont expect any progress on moving the tests any time soon, they get run now, so im not in any particular hurry to move them to unit-tests, as much as that would be nice)
324 2013-01-08 18:20:14 <grau> gmaxwell: sorry no time at hand during the week
325 2013-01-08 18:20:24 <gmaxwell> Okay.
326 2013-01-08 18:21:20 <grau> I promise to do it before the end of the weekend perhabs earlier
327 2013-01-08 20:00:38 <gmaxwell> I don't suppose Sergio bothered giving anyone a heads up on this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135385.0
328 2013-01-08 20:01:35 <sipa> nope
329 2013-01-08 20:03:55 <gavinandresen> nope
330 2013-01-08 20:04:04 <gavinandresen> I'm all: "meh"
331 2013-01-08 20:04:50 <abracadabra> meh
332 2013-01-08 20:04:54 <abracadabra> guess i'll update
333 2013-01-08 20:05:49 <lianj> gavinandresen: why meh?
334 2013-01-08 20:06:03 <gavinandresen> lianj: because it is an expensive attack that is trivial to recover from
335 2013-01-08 20:06:07 <TD_> there are about a million ways to DoS nodes anyway
336 2013-01-08 20:06:12 <gavinandresen> ... so why would an attacker bother?
337 2013-01-08 20:06:14 <TD_> if that's the worst vulnerability someone can find, we're doing o
338 2013-01-08 20:06:15 <TD_> ok
339 2013-01-08 20:06:22 <lianj> gavinandresen: right
340 2013-01-08 20:07:22 <gavinandresen> even if the attacker was successful, the person attacked would probably not even notice: "oh, bitcoin crashed. But it works fine when I restart... weird."
341 2013-01-08 20:07:30 <lianj> typo s/magabyte/megabyte/
342 2013-01-08 20:09:59 <lianj> or what are magabytes?
343 2013-01-08 20:12:22 <RBecker> m
344 2013-01-08 20:13:20 <gavinandresen> sipa gmaxwell : I spent most of today on QA process stuff: https://github.com/bitcoin/QA ... and creating a couple of test plans, for the hardlink pull request and spendfrom.py
345 2013-01-08 20:13:24 <lianj> oh nevermind, my brain tricked my into thinking the typo appeared twice, but it just one, so sorry for making fun of it
346 2013-01-08 20:15:59 <MC1984> what is the installer for windows, is it NSIS?
347 2013-01-08 20:16:06 <sipa> yes
348 2013-01-08 20:16:57 <MC1984> it would be nice if it detected where bitcoin is already installed, for upgrade installs
349 2013-01-08 20:17:30 <MC1984> i just ran into that and it led to the URI handler getting registered to the wrong directory on my system
350 2013-01-08 21:45:35 <helo> hang the client in two minutes with 500kB/s?
351 2013-01-08 21:48:18 <gmaxwell> helo: hang 0.6.2 or below.
352 2013-01-08 21:49:44 <gmaxwell> assuming you have a 40 mbit/sec+ connection to it and that you can actually produce 40mbit/sec of bitcoin messages at it.
353 2013-01-08 22:51:22 <etotheipi_> if I was to implement a JSON-RPC interface into Armory ,is there a reason not to use the bitcoin.conf file? same username & password?
354 2013-01-08 22:52:01 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: none I know of
355 2013-01-08 23:42:08 <da2ce768> hey, the only way to get a new network rule for bitcoin, is to create a merged-mining block-chain, and notarize certan bitcoin transactions within it?
356 2013-01-08 23:42:53 <da2ce768> then if you want to comply with this new network rule, you make your bitcoin tx, and then make a notarization in the merged-mining chain that checks for the aditional rules?
357 2013-01-08 23:45:09 <da2ce768> Luke-Jr: ?
358 2013-01-08 23:45:31 <Luke-Jr> huh?
359 2013-01-08 23:47:44 <da2ce768> um, two messages above?
360 2013-01-08 23:47:51 <Luke-Jr> I don't get it.
361 2013-01-08 23:47:55 <gmaxwell> da2ce768: what are you talking about?
362 2013-01-08 23:49:56 <da2ce768> if I wanted to make a more-strict network enforeced rule for bitcoin. The only way (other than a fork), would be to create a merged-mining block-chain that notarize certan bitcoin transactions that comply with the more strict rules?
363 2013-01-08 23:50:33 <da2ce768> then you create the bitcoin transaction, then you list that tx-hash in the merged-mining blockchain.
364 2013-01-08 23:50:45 <Luke-Jr> I still have no idea what you mean???
365 2013-01-08 23:53:05 <da2ce768> say that I want a rule that says "only tx that contain the OP xyz in the from abc are accepted". Of course, if you implemented that rule in Bitcoin, it would create a fork and it would cease to be Bitcoin.
366 2013-01-08 23:54:23 <da2ce768> however if I merged-mined a blockchain that had that restriction, there could be a list of tx's that comply with that rule, and whenever sombody try's to notarize a tx that breaks that rule. the mm blockchain could reject it.
367 2013-01-08 23:54:48 <Luke-Jr> and the MM blockchain would be useless???
368 2013-01-08 23:55:03 <Luke-Jr> besides, the first solution is exactly what we did with P2SH
369 2013-01-08 23:55:11 <Luke-Jr> and it's still Bitcoin
370 2013-01-08 23:55:41 <da2ce768> except for people who want to know the subset of tx's that are both bitcoin AND comply with the extra rule.