1 2013-03-28 00:00:23 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: over 320 miles?
2 2013-03-28 00:00:59 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: its closer to 13 last time I did the math for it
3 2013-03-28 00:01:25 <Diablo-D3> and I may end up budgeting $50k/mile for it just in case.
4 2013-03-28 00:04:38 <kfreds> Wow. You think you can get the investments for it? Then how can the initial 50k be a problem?
5 2013-03-28 00:25:17 <kfreds> Here's a question. Is it possible to have bitcoind and bitcoin-qt running at the same time? Can I have many bitcoind instances using the same db at the same time?
6 2013-03-28 00:25:26 <sipa> no and no
7 2013-03-28 00:25:35 <sipa> well yes, but not sharing the same database
8 2013-03-28 00:26:09 <kfreds> Ok, thanks.
9 2013-03-28 00:29:28 <ryan-c> kfreds: bitcoin-qt has a -server option that will enable the rpc interface
10 2013-03-28 00:31:21 <kfreds> Oh, good. That's one of the things I was thinking about :)
11 2013-03-28 00:33:32 <kfreds> I really like the raw transaction calls and the blocknotify option. You can do so much fun stuff with them :)
12 2013-03-28 00:34:17 <kfreds> It's great when you haven't used a piece of software for a while, and then you look into it again and stuff has been implemented that you wished for last time you ran it :)
13 2013-03-28 00:50:31 <lianj> meh, someone succesfully used btc with namecheap
14 2013-03-28 02:04:00 <muhoo> that thread was quaint,people offeringg 400 btc bounties
15 2013-03-28 03:18:10 <cornfeedhobo> can someone explain the best practices for handling wallets for online services. I understand the concepts of cold storage and all, but how do these exchange houses have cold storage and the ability to make transactions? i read about what a hot wallet is, but how do they interact?
16 2013-03-28 03:19:21 <[Tycho]> Depends on your setup.
17 2013-03-28 03:19:44 <[Tycho]> Sometimes authorized staff refill the hot wallet from the cold one after sanity checks.
18 2013-03-28 03:19:54 <[Tycho]> And vice versa.
19 2013-03-28 03:20:25 <cornfeedhobo> but then users have to wait for the transaction between the two wallets to be virified?
20 2013-03-28 03:20:44 <[Tycho]> Usually one confirmation is enough.
21 2013-03-28 03:20:58 <[Tycho]> But they don't have to wait, it's buffered.
22 2013-03-28 03:22:03 <[Tycho]> So, for example, you see that today people withdraw more than usual and just some thousands left in the hot wallet, then you refill it. But people can still continue withdrawing while it's being refilled.
23 2013-03-28 03:22:56 <cornfeedhobo> but, yeah, that is assuwing you stay on top of the buffer
24 2013-03-28 03:23:11 <cornfeedhobo> correct?
25 2013-03-28 03:23:27 <[Tycho]> Yes, so you should.
26 2013-03-28 03:23:49 <cornfeedhobo> i guess i mean that it is a manual operation because of the needs for a cold wallet
27 2013-03-28 03:24:59 <cornfeedhobo> okay... is it normal practice to have one large hot wallet & a DB that keeps track of what users have or create wallets for each user?
28 2013-03-28 03:27:56 <Belxjander> cornfeedhobo: I would personally run a DB and have a personal wallet for each individual anyway
29 2013-03-28 03:28:32 <cornfeedhobo> thats what i was thinking after reading what i wrote
30 2013-03-28 03:29:49 <cornfeedhobo> the question is whether that will be a nuisance to users... but i cant think of haw that would affoct them
31 2013-03-28 03:32:51 <Belxjander> cornfeedhobo: as long as they have access to the on-system wallet the same there is no downside
32 2013-03-28 03:33:01 <Tantadra> <[tycho thx for cool answers to cornfeedhobo
33 2013-03-28 03:35:19 <cornfeedhobo> oek thanks. I am tossing around creating a site... i am doing to play with some code over the next few days...i will probably be back with more questions
34 2013-03-28 03:35:27 <cornfeedhobo> thanks guys :-)
35 2013-03-28 03:35:53 <Belxjander> cornfeedhobo: if you write it up in python... maybe you can host on AppEngine for free?
36 2013-03-28 03:36:43 <cornfeedhobo> oh neat
37 2013-03-28 03:36:59 <cornfeedhobo> unfortunately i am best with php
38 2013-03-28 03:37:33 <Belxjander> ahh okay
39 2013-03-28 03:37:53 <cornfeedhobo> is there a place that has links to bitcoin dev projects? i found the github project for a xmlrpc-php class
40 2013-03-28 03:37:59 <cornfeedhobo> any thing like that?
41 2013-03-28 03:38:48 <cornfeedhobo> Belxjander: i went to a python class last year and i didnt learn anything because of the teacher's horrible accent
42 2013-03-28 03:39:12 <Tantadra> cornfeedhobo: wait a sec i have smthng for php
43 2013-03-28 03:40:13 <cornfeedhobo> like maybe a popular class that handles bitcoind interactions.... i could create my awn but i figure i am not the firnt to think about this
44 2013-03-28 03:40:37 <Tantadruj> cornfeedhobo: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PHP_developer_intro
45 2013-03-28 03:40:38 <digitalmagus> cornfeedhobo: You mean like this: https://github.com/search?q=bitcoin&type=&ref=simplesearch
46 2013-03-28 03:40:47 <cornfeedhobo> (sorry still leraaning dvorak keybourd{
47 2013-03-28 03:41:05 <digitalmagus> 100 pages worth of bitcoin dev projects
48 2013-03-28 03:41:27 <cornfeedhobo> digitalmagus: :-D
49 2013-03-28 03:41:32 <digitalmagus> well ok, maybe some of those aren't for bitcoin, but still tonnes
50 2013-03-28 03:41:36 <cornfeedhobo> & *facepalm*
51 2013-03-28 03:41:39 <cornfeedhobo> thanks guys
52 2013-03-28 03:41:53 <cornfeedhobo> this gives me a bunch
53 2013-03-28 03:43:35 <cornfeedhobo> there is even a charts library! why did i not use the github search. sorry guys
54 2013-03-28 03:44:18 <Belxjander> I need to have a breakdown of the idea and the parts needed as well
55 2013-03-28 03:44:40 <cornfeedhobo> Belxjander: i will have a better idea as i learn more
56 2013-03-28 03:45:21 <Belxjander> your using win/lin/mac then?
57 2013-03-28 03:46:15 <cornfeedhobo> oh i use linux everywhere
58 2013-03-28 03:46:56 <Belxjander> using AmigaOS as desktop myself.... need to make a new linux machine
59 2013-03-28 03:47:38 <cornfeedhobo> i am trying kubuntu right now.... i am liking it
60 2013-03-28 03:48:05 <cornfeedhobo> i would probably use centos for hosting.. or Arch
61 2013-03-28 03:48:10 <Tantadruj> Belx: Amiga???
62 2013-03-28 03:48:20 <Belxjander> I would use Gentoo myself
63 2013-03-28 03:48:20 <[Tycho]> cornfeedhobo: what kind of service you are planning to run ? In most cases separate wallets for all users is not the best solution.
64 2013-03-28 03:48:25 <Tantadruj> Belx: brings back good memories
65 2013-03-28 03:48:40 <Tantadruj> Beljx: how do you set up AmigaOS these days?
66 2013-03-28 03:48:50 <cornfeedhobo> Belxjander: i love gentoo!!!
67 2013-03-28 03:49:00 <cornfeedhobo> but compile times are too long
68 2013-03-28 03:49:00 <[Tycho]> freebsd ftw
69 2013-03-28 03:49:08 <Belxjander> Tantadra: comes on cd with the ppc mainboard I bought
70 2013-03-28 03:49:22 <cornfeedhobo> if i had more time i want to make a binary getoo
71 2013-03-28 03:50:01 <Belxjander> just select drive, usb/hdd/sd/... partition and tell it install... or run the live cd option
72 2013-03-28 03:50:08 <cornfeedhobo> i even own bintoo.org from when i was dreaming about it
73 2013-03-28 03:51:47 <cornfeedhobo> [Tycho]: why not?
74 2013-03-28 03:53:00 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: awesome :)
75 2013-03-28 03:53:05 <[Tycho]> cornfeedhobo: are you planning to ONLY store their money or actually do something with it ?
76 2013-03-28 03:53:36 <Belxjander> right now I want to work out whats essential operations for the mining and wallet tools to make a Wallet prorgam, bitcoind and possibly FPGA based mining option for AmigaOS
77 2013-03-28 03:54:06 <Belxjander> Tantadra: at the moment most AmigaOS motherboards have an FPGA on them as standard free for the user to program with anything
78 2013-03-28 03:54:29 <cornfeedhobo> [Tycho]: they will transfer to other users on the same site
79 2013-03-28 03:54:39 <Belxjander> and a VME or some such 80pin "geekport" header wired to the FPGA
80 2013-03-28 03:55:33 <Tantadruj> haha
81 2013-03-28 03:55:47 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: zorro 2.0
82 2013-03-28 03:56:37 <Belxjander> Tantadra: Zorro/ ZorroII and Zorro3 are all the 68K machine spec
83 2013-03-28 03:56:59 <Belxjander> modern Amiga boards have PCI-Express/AGP/PCI slot combinations
84 2013-03-28 04:03:30 <Tantadra> Belxjander: wanna see one day and play with it a bit ;)
85 2013-03-28 04:10:38 <Belxjander> Tantadra: are you in japan?
86 2013-03-28 04:11:03 <Tantadra> Belxjander: california
87 2013-03-28 04:11:21 <Belxjander> ahhh... AmiWest... look that up...
88 2013-03-28 04:12:01 <Belxjander> Tantadra: do you code for anything?
89 2013-03-28 04:12:47 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: will check it out
90 2013-03-28 04:13:14 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: researching on BTC these days, working for me = Dubjoy,com
91 2013-03-28 04:13:39 <Tantadruj> i mean, coding for me :)
92 2013-03-28 04:13:51 <Tantadruj> code != work
93 2013-03-28 04:14:51 <Belxjander> ahh okay... code.google.com/p/[perception-ime|polymorph] << my two current projects
94 2013-03-28 04:17:00 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: deep in trenches I see :)
95 2013-03-28 04:19:38 <ligar> go 90.13!
96 2013-03-28 04:19:50 <ligar> er wrong chat
97 2013-03-28 04:20:04 <ligar> ACTION wonders off
98 2013-03-28 04:34:21 <peawormsworth> mined bitcoins x USD market price > $1,000,000,000
99 2013-03-28 04:38:27 <digitalmagus> So what's the recommended Linux flavour to compile the most popular bitcoin packages, like bitcoin-qt etc... I'm finding too many dependancy hell scenarios with CentOS 6
100 2013-03-28 04:39:59 <Belxjander> digitalmagus: well I see Gentoo documented already in the wiki
101 2013-03-28 04:40:22 <Belxjander> and hello to me...
102 2013-03-28 04:40:27 <Belxjander> I'm walking away from my desktop right now
103 2013-03-28 04:40:30 <digitalmagus> :) let me look into that
104 2013-03-28 04:41:04 <Bjander> And using my phone....
105 2013-03-28 04:43:12 <cerublue> Ubuntu?
106 2013-03-28 04:43:19 <cerublue> I've never had an issues compiling things on ubuntu...
107 2013-03-28 04:43:24 <cerublue> *any
108 2013-03-28 06:04:33 <warren> digitalmagus: the only thing you need to build manually on CentOS is openssl. The rpm's provide all the other needed deps.
109 2013-03-28 06:06:45 <digitalmagus> warren: CentOS didn't even include gcc, and after I installed that, I got tonnes of errors trying to compile bitcoin-qt... also the doc/* instructions are all for ubunto and debian... so most of the commands fail in CentOS. I've just finished installing Ubuntu... let's see how that goes. Last time I tried Linux was over 4 years ago and threw it aside because of too much dependency hell...
110 2013-03-28 06:06:46 <digitalmagus> I'm starting to get flashbacks :-/
111 2013-03-28 06:07:45 <warren> digitalmagus: this just means you don't know how to use centos
112 2013-03-28 06:08:15 <digitalmagus> warren: Yup, I admit it. I don't want to waste time learning an OS, I just want to quickly use apps on it.
113 2013-03-28 06:08:15 <warren> digitalmagus: it does suck that you can't use the system's openssl though
114 2013-03-28 06:09:29 <warren> digitalmagus: if you need things to just work, why you building it from source instead of using the reference binary?
115 2013-03-28 06:10:27 <digitalmagus> warren: I am trying to 'make' it from source... source requires too many dependencies which yum can't find, even after I add lots of repositories to it
116 2013-03-28 06:11:09 <warren> digitalmagus: adding repositories is exactly the wrong thing to do
117 2013-03-28 06:11:51 <warren> digitalmagus: yum install boost-devel qt-devel
118 2013-03-28 06:12:04 <warren> digitalmagus: that will give you everything you need with the exception of openssl which you need to build manually
119 2013-03-28 06:12:07 <digitalmagus> warren: yeah well, spending 80% of my time googling for source to meet dependencies is a huge waste of productive time. I'm all for apt-get or some other auto-install the crap I need and let me get to work.
120 2013-03-28 06:12:45 <digitalmagus> warren: after my work is done, then yes, I would take the time to do a fresh/clean OS install and secure it all before going into production
121 2013-03-28 06:13:26 <digitalmagus> warren: Ah ok, I tried to do: yum install boost ... but didn't know there was a -dev and -qt-dev as well
122 2013-03-28 06:13:35 <digitalmagus> let me try that then...
123 2013-03-28 06:14:54 <warren> digitalmagus: fedora and centos are in a bad situation now with openssl
124 2013-03-28 06:15:09 <warren> digitalmagus: hopefully in a few months sipa's new library will replace openssl entirely
125 2013-03-28 06:15:34 <sivu> puuh... running bitcoind on a server increases ssh attacks threefold
126 2013-03-28 06:15:46 <digitalmagus> havent heard of sipa
127 2013-03-28 06:15:52 <digitalmagus> sivu: how so?
128 2013-03-28 06:16:04 <digitalmagus> sivu: extrenal hacker attacks?
129 2013-03-28 06:16:27 <warren> sivu: http://www.cipherdyne.org/fwknop/
130 2013-03-28 06:16:35 <warren> close the ssh port =)
131 2013-03-28 06:16:40 <sivu> digitalmagus: yes. fail2ban mails increased almost instantly
132 2013-03-28 06:17:07 <digitalmagus> sivu: stick a firewall in front of your linux box and lock down which IPs can SSH to the box. Easy problem to solve no?
133 2013-03-28 06:17:38 <sivu> yeah its not an issue, just an observation
134 2013-03-28 06:19:20 <warren> digitalmagus: http://linux.ringingliberty.com/bitcoin/
135 2013-03-28 06:19:39 <warren> digitalmagus: this guy made RPMS of a parallel-install openssl and bitcoin for fedora and EL6
136 2013-03-28 06:19:58 <digitalmagus> warren: cool thanks.
137 2013-03-28 06:21:36 <FellowTraveler> Hi, we have Open-Transactions now available via apt-get for Ubuntu 12.04. If anyone is interested to test it out: http://www.openwallet.org/downloads/
138 2013-03-28 06:21:59 <FellowTraveler> It changes quite often, FYI. Anyone who needs support, there are usually people on #opentransactions (freenode)
139 2013-03-28 06:22:30 <keystrike> cool
140 2013-03-28 06:22:36 <FellowTraveler> that is all.
141 2013-03-28 06:22:39 <keystrike> has the project seen much progress lately?
142 2013-03-28 06:22:41 <keystrike> ah
143 2013-03-28 06:22:48 <digitalmagus> open transactions? Isn't the idea to hide them ? :P
144 2013-03-28 06:23:20 <digitalmagus> Oh I see.. Open as in opensource
145 2013-03-28 06:29:53 <SomeoneWeird> lol FT
146 2013-03-28 07:02:13 <Grishnap> Hey guys, has there been economic work in how transaction costs evolve in the BTC system?
147 2013-03-28 07:02:50 <Grishnap> I appreciate this is the wrong forum to ask the question (and am conducting searches in the scholarly domains as we speak)
148 2013-03-28 07:03:22 <Grishnap> But any answers pointing me to an analysis of transaction costs in the network would be appreciated
149 2013-03-28 07:03:50 <digitalmagus> Grishnap: Not sure but try this google query: bitcoin academic transaction costs PDF
150 2013-03-28 07:04:50 <Grishnap> hehe, thanks digitalmagus for being concerned that I do not know how to use google :D
151 2013-03-28 07:04:54 <topi`> funny how -reindex slows down by a factor 10 or maybe 100, when the block count reaches 210000
152 2013-03-28 07:05:25 <denisx> topi`: you are using 0.8.0?
153 2013-03-28 07:05:30 <topi`> yes 0.8.0
154 2013-03-28 07:05:33 <denisx> you should use 0.8.1
155 2013-03-28 07:05:35 <digitalmagus> Grishnap: I saw a webpage the other day that pointed to 57 academic papers on bitcoin... too bad my google-fu is not good enough to find it again :P
156 2013-03-28 07:05:39 <denisx> then it gets slower alot later
157 2013-03-28 07:05:40 <gmaxwell> topi`: the factor depends on your cpu speed??? it's just the ecdsa valudation kicking in.
158 2013-03-28 07:06:08 <topi`> gmaxwell: so the num of ecdsa validations grows exponentially at later blocks?
159 2013-03-28 07:06:30 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: I'm not aware of anything really along those lines. And general scholarly work on Bitcoin tends to be of low quality now??? seems journals can't find reviewers who are competent about the system... but the question you're asking sounds even more abstract than many others.
160 2013-03-28 07:06:30 <Grishnap> digitalmagus, I call that the "time machine" problem. to re-find some results, you'd practically need a time machine back to the exact moment where you found it in the first place :D
161 2013-03-28 07:06:39 <topi`> maybe ecdsa could be accelerated with a GPU?
162 2013-03-28 07:06:49 <gmaxwell> topi`: No, the software doesn't run ECDSA on very old blocks.
163 2013-03-28 07:07:07 <denisx> topi`: after the checkpoint the validation gets alot harder
164 2013-03-28 07:07:13 <topi`> right.
165 2013-03-28 07:07:16 <denisx> and 0.8.1 has a later checkpoint
166 2013-03-28 07:07:26 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, hmm, the "Bitter-to-Better" paper might have some good ideas how to mitigate what might become a problem
167 2013-03-28 07:07:33 <gmaxwell> topi`: sipa has ecdsa code which is 4-5x faster now)
168 2013-03-28 07:07:42 <topi`> denisx: well I'm already processing blocks from january so almost there now ;)
169 2013-03-28 07:08:10 <denisx> topi`: 0.8.1 has the checkpoint on 12.3.2013
170 2013-03-28 07:08:59 <topi`> could the ecdsa validations be done in parallel? maybe, since each block has lots of tx's to be validated
171 2013-03-28 07:09:10 <denisx> they are
172 2013-03-28 07:09:11 <topi`> so, openCL would offer faster validation
173 2013-03-28 07:09:22 <topi`> maybe a FPGA
174 2013-03-28 07:09:28 <gmaxwell> topi`: it is done in parallel.
175 2013-03-28 07:09:41 <gmaxwell> depending on a fpga isn't really all that helpful.
176 2013-03-28 07:09:41 <topi`> gmaxwell: which is not very parallel on my core2duo ;)
177 2013-03-28 07:09:56 <gmaxwell> topi`: I guess you weren't excited by a 5x speedup?
178 2013-03-28 07:10:22 <topi`> gmaxwell: yes the 5x speedup is really helpful, i'm just thinking of ways of offloading work from cpu to a fpga or whatnot
179 2013-03-28 07:10:34 <topi`> my intent is to run bitcoind on an ARM cpu :)
180 2013-03-28 07:10:35 <Grishnap> it's a very interesting problem from an economic standpoint. miners must balance the cost of mining against the transaction costs received.
181 2013-03-28 07:10:58 <Grishnap> thanks gmaxwell for the input, and digitalmagus
182 2013-03-28 07:11:00 <gmaxwell> topi`: so run it on one??? catching up with the history isn't terribly interesting since its a one time operation.
183 2013-03-28 07:11:22 <topi`> gmaxwell: I know, but incoming tx's and blocks do generate some CPU usage
184 2013-03-28 07:11:24 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: hm? Transactions have almost no marginal cost impact to miners.
185 2013-03-28 07:12:11 <gmaxwell> topi`: so, if you can afford an fpga for validation you can obviously also afford a faster cpu. :P ...
186 2013-03-28 07:12:31 <gmaxwell> topi`: writing a fast arm implementation of our ecdsa would perhaps be productive.
187 2013-03-28 07:12:34 <Grishnap> digitalmagus, just for fun I used your exact search term, and it found a nice handful of the top bitcoin papers I already knew and a few new ones, so I'm sorry for being initially skeptical that it would work (I was using Gscholar and my own school's academic database search, before, lol, but this actually gave me something new)
188 2013-03-28 07:12:48 <topi`> gmaxwell: the point of an ARM is that very few script k1dd1es can write arm assembler, so stack exploits get hard
189 2013-03-28 07:12:56 <digitalmagus> Grishnap: :)
190 2013-03-28 07:13:18 <topi`> also, security by obscurity :)
191 2013-03-28 07:13:19 <gmaxwell> topi`: 0_o uh. arm asm is a lot easier to write than x86, and there is ready to run arm shell code out there.
192 2013-03-28 07:13:41 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, I'm showing my ignorance of the BTC protocol here. I should read this printout of satoshi's paper here in my lap before asking a single question more, hah.
193 2013-03-28 07:13:41 <topi`> well maybe the situation has changed in 5 years
194 2013-03-28 07:13:45 <gmaxwell> topi`: at the same time bitcoin is less well tested on arm and appears to have at least one arm specific crash.
195 2013-03-28 07:14:04 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: knowledge of 68K or PPC asm certainly helped me pick up arm ISA asm
196 2013-03-28 07:14:20 <topi`> gmaxwell: maybe I should have a look at that, if it is reproducible
197 2013-03-28 07:14:42 <gmaxwell> topi`: if you want obscurity, run bitcoin on netbsd on vax emulator. :P (http://simh.trailing-edge.com/)
198 2013-03-28 07:14:45 <Belxjander> Grishnakh: where are you and do you have a PDF link about satoshi's paper?
199 2013-03-28 07:15:00 <gmaxwell> topi`: it's not reliably reproducable or it would be fixed... but if you can reproduce it, that would be good.
200 2013-03-28 07:15:19 <gmaxwell> topi`: it sounds like an unaligned read ... someplace. (bombing out with a bus error IIRC)
201 2013-03-28 07:15:22 <topi`> gmaxwell: is there a bug report somewhere about it?
202 2013-03-28 07:15:55 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
203 2013-03-28 07:16:36 <denisx> there was a bitcoind on iphone, so someone already has done the port to arm
204 2013-03-28 07:17:12 <toffoo> bitcoin-qt just crashed on me for the first time ever (since like v0.3something)
205 2013-03-28 07:17:26 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: the paper is pretty high level. In any case, the miners only real immediate costs for a transaction are some moderate bandwidth increases when announcing a solution. There are long term costs borne by the entire network. The miner's constraint is that blocks have a limited size.
206 2013-03-28 07:17:43 <Belxjander> ACTION is looking to port bitcoin-qt to AmigaOS/MUI
207 2013-03-28 07:17:51 <toffoo> v0.8.1 on mac
208 2013-03-28 07:17:54 <gmaxwell> denisx: there isn't a "port" required.. it works on arm. But it sounds like there is at least one arm specific bug.
209 2013-03-28 07:17:57 <toffoo> "LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
210 2013-03-28 07:17:57 <toffoo> *** System error: Database corrupted"
211 2013-03-28 07:18:22 <SomeoneWeird> i know the problem, your database is corrupted
212 2013-03-28 07:18:25 <SomeoneWeird> ACTION runs
213 2013-03-28 07:19:10 <gmaxwell> toffoo: starting bitcoin with reindex will fix that. Your database is corrupted. I will guess that you had an unclean power off previously?
214 2013-03-28 07:19:34 <gmaxwell> Recent reports have made it sound like leveldb has durability problems with unclean poweroffs on mac (and windows)
215 2013-03-28 07:19:39 <toffoo> it's reindexing now (oh joy)
216 2013-03-28 07:19:41 <warren> and btrfs
217 2013-03-28 07:19:53 <toffoo> no unclean power off recently
218 2013-03-28 07:19:56 <toffoo> so i'm curious why it happened
219 2013-03-28 07:20:17 <sipa> it's not database corruption
220 2013-03-28 07:20:24 <sipa> but block data corruption
221 2013-03-28 07:20:44 <toffoo> oh rly? are we forking again or something?
222 2013-03-28 07:20:56 <sipa> of your hard drive
223 2013-03-28 07:21:14 <toffoo> i see
224 2013-03-28 07:21:20 <digitalmagus> this is how rumours get started :)
225 2013-03-28 07:21:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: huh? thats a leveldb error. Its the sort of thing you could get from a torn write, no?
226 2013-03-28 07:22:01 <sipa> uh.
227 2013-03-28 07:22:10 <sipa> i must still be sleeping
228 2013-03-28 07:22:13 <toffoo> so when this reindexes do you think i'll be all set? or do i have to dl the block chain again?
229 2013-03-28 07:22:19 <sipa> toffoo: ignore me
230 2013-03-28 07:22:52 <gmaxwell> toffoo: No you won't have to download anything again. (except perhaps a couple of the most recent blocks)
231 2013-03-28 07:23:29 <toffoo> ok .. 68% now .. i'll let you know how it turns out, or I see it crash again
232 2013-03-28 07:27:13 <topi`> toffoo: I'm also reindexing my blockchain... maybe the same bug? I have OSX10.6 and bitcoin 0.8.0
233 2013-03-28 07:28:26 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, hmm, how much of the mining incentive is currently transaction costs?
234 2013-03-28 07:29:14 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, actually, sorry, that's a dumb question for me to just arbitrarily expect you to know
235 2013-03-28 07:29:22 <Grishnap> google is my friend!
236 2013-03-28 07:29:23 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: No, it's not.
237 2013-03-28 07:29:37 <denisx> Grishnap: 1/(25/fee)
238 2013-03-28 07:30:23 <digitalmagus> yeah, startpage.com is my friend now :)
239 2013-03-28 07:31:25 <Grishnap> denisx, 1/(25/fee) = fee/25. So each miner that authenticates a block gets (1/25)th of the fee load of that block?
240 2013-03-28 07:31:56 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, haha, are you replying to my "google is friend!" statement, or to my previous statement
241 2013-03-28 07:32:32 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: Your first, and your math is crazy.
242 2013-03-28 07:32:42 <denisx> Grishnap: nvm, I got your question wrong
243 2013-03-28 07:33:18 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: mining is an atomic process, a block exists or does not exist and the miner that creates a block gets all the fees.
244 2013-03-28 07:34:08 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: for the last 1000 blocks the reward stats are:
245 2013-03-28 07:34:08 <gmaxwell> Min. 1st Qu. Median Mean 3rd Qu. Max.
246 2013-03-28 07:34:10 <gmaxwell> 25.00 25.09 25.21 25.30 25.37 39.89
247 2013-03-28 07:34:20 <gmaxwell> 25 BTC of the reward is subsidy (not fee).
248 2013-03-28 07:34:28 <Grishnap> I _really_ _must_ _insert_ _foot_ _in_ _mouth_ _and_ _read_ _that_ _paper_
249 2013-03-28 07:34:38 <gmaxwell> The paper is short.
250 2013-03-28 07:34:53 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, not another peep from me till I know _exactly_ how blocks are authenticated and distributed
251 2013-03-28 07:35:00 <gmaxwell> You will have more questions than answers after reading it??? but some of the questions may be better.
252 2013-03-28 07:35:10 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, yeah, I have it here in my hand, lol, nine pages only
253 2013-03-28 07:35:33 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: They are authenticated by everyone. Bitcoin is zero trust, for the most part. Mining is about giving _order_ to transactions, but the validity is checked autonoymously by all full nodes.
254 2013-03-28 07:35:39 <Grishnap> I eat nine pages of academic paper for breakfast, but this has deeper crypto than I'm used to, so it will be a challenge
255 2013-03-28 07:36:56 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, yeah, I can literally feel that my questions are currently poor, heh.
256 2013-03-28 07:37:54 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, I think the paper addresses why it's important to give order to the transactions in the section on timestamping, so lemme waste no more of your time, and consult that
257 2013-03-28 07:38:04 <Grishnap> thanks for your help this evening
258 2013-03-28 07:38:14 <gmaxwell> it helps to understand that all the validation stuff, signatures, hashes, etc. is "trivial" it's all easily solved straight engineering work. The hard problem is getting mutually distrusting decenteralized nodes to agree on the history of all transactions. (they can check validity for themselves??? 'just engineering'??? but you can't generally prove to yourself what order events came in, only what order you saw them in: and that isn't ...
259 2013-03-28 07:38:20 <gmaxwell> ... universal)
260 2013-03-28 07:38:46 <MC1984> is there any evidnce the fees market is starting to work
261 2013-03-28 07:38:59 <MC1984> isnt that why the blocks were limited to 250kb
262 2013-03-28 07:40:31 <Guest23781> MC1984: you're from Greek ascent right?
263 2013-03-28 07:40:55 <MC1984> nope
264 2013-03-28 07:41:01 <gmaxwell> MC1984: too easly defeated by a few miners mining at 500k... It was set to 250k iirc because it mimicked the behavior under the old rules.
265 2013-03-28 07:41:48 <n1c> Is it possible to "only" mine for transaction fees?
266 2013-03-28 07:42:13 <MC1984> nope
267 2013-03-28 07:42:30 <sturles> Yes, but it would be pretty stupid to forfeit the block reward at this point.
268 2013-03-28 07:42:58 <sturles> Same effort.
269 2013-03-28 07:43:09 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: what about taking every "transaction event" as a standalone Incoming message and don't care what order as long as it is timestamped within boundaries and record it in each block appropriately?
270 2013-03-28 07:43:12 <MC1984> sturles you can really mine a block without subsidy?
271 2013-03-28 07:43:18 <MC1984> sounds like an attack vector
272 2013-03-28 07:43:39 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: your timestamps are different from mine, why should I believe yours?
273 2013-03-28 07:43:53 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the "I deprived myself of money attack" oh no!
274 2013-03-28 07:43:55 <gmaxwell> :P
275 2013-03-28 07:44:00 <sturles> Yes, I believe the clients will accept it as long as your reward isn't higher than the allowed.
276 2013-03-28 07:44:03 <MC1984> lol
277 2013-03-28 07:44:08 <gmaxwell> sturles is correct.
278 2013-03-28 07:44:10 <MC1984> more like i deprived someone else too
279 2013-03-28 07:44:13 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: you don't... you timestamp the transactions for yourself based on the time-of-receipt??
280 2013-03-28 07:44:14 <gmaxwell> MC1984: who?
281 2013-03-28 07:44:21 <MC1984> other miners
282 2013-03-28 07:44:24 <topi`> Grishnap: I tried to calculate the average txfees per block from Slush's data, but couldn't do it prorammatically since the json didn't include the "block value" which is visible via the UI
283 2013-03-28 07:44:45 <MC1984> also fucks up bitcoins economic projections somewhat
284 2013-03-28 07:44:51 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: great. But you see A then B, and I see B than A.. Both B and A spend the same coin so both can't be valid. Now you and I disagree on who owns which coins.
285 2013-03-28 07:44:51 <MC1984> what little projections it has at any rate
286 2013-03-28 07:44:58 <gmaxwell> MC1984: other miners?!
287 2013-03-28 07:45:15 <topi`> but it seems that most blocks are between 25.1 or 25.2 of value, so txfees are at around 0.1 BTC per block
288 2013-03-28 07:45:18 <gmaxwell> topi`: I gave the numbers right above.
289 2013-03-28 07:45:23 <gmaxwell> topi`: scroll up
290 2013-03-28 07:45:29 <topi`> oh? I was busy python scripting
291 2013-03-28 07:45:32 <gmaxwell> 01:33 < gmaxwell> Grishnap: for the last 1000 blocks the reward stats are:
292 2013-03-28 07:45:39 <topi`> only to find no "block value" field in the stupid data
293 2013-03-28 07:45:40 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: source and destination addresses are the same for both of us right?
294 2013-03-28 07:45:40 <gmaxwell> python. lol. I solved it with shell.
295 2013-03-28 07:45:50 <gmaxwell> ("Solved it with shell" should be a slogan)
296 2013-03-28 07:45:50 <MC1984> well i suppose you could just mine blocks and destroy the coins too
297 2013-03-28 07:46:04 <slush> topi`: oh, that's a bug, not a feature. I'll add it to json...
298 2013-03-28 07:46:26 <gmaxwell> topi`: (for i in {228367..227367} ; do export bh=`./bitcoind getblockhash $i` ; for tx in `./bitcoind getblock $bh | grep ' "' | head -1 |cut -d'"' -f2` ; do ./bitcoind getrawtransaction $tx 1 | grep value | cut -d':' -f2 | cut -d ',' -f1 | awk '{aa+=$1} END {print aa}' ; done ; done)
299 2013-03-28 07:46:37 <topi`> gmaxwell: oh, that 5-values output really looked like 'R' output ;)
300 2013-03-28 07:46:50 <MC1984> cat typing detected
301 2013-03-28 07:46:52 <Belxjander> are there any python scripts not part of a complete client as a breakdown of what operations occur?
302 2013-03-28 07:46:54 <gmaxwell> topi`: well I ran the data through R for the values. :P
303 2013-03-28 07:47:08 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: I don't follow your question.
304 2013-03-28 07:47:21 <topi`> slush: sorry for bringing the issue up ;) btw, do you do the website in python? since your mining_proxy was done in Twisted
305 2013-03-28 07:47:35 <slush> topi`: yes, django
306 2013-03-28 07:47:36 <topi`> slush: I've spent last 5 months trying to pick up Twisted, it's an intriguing framework
307 2013-03-28 07:47:52 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: There are two distinct transactions, A and B. Both spend coin X. A pays Alice. B pays Bob. You see A first then B. I see B first than A.
308 2013-03-28 07:48:05 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I'm wanting to setup a niche OS as having a client... but have no real grasp of the algorithms and find it hard to read the C++ client code
309 2013-03-28 07:48:12 <gmaxwell> (transactions do not have a source address)
310 2013-03-28 07:48:13 <slush> Yes, it is. I still feel like I use 10% of its features and it's still powerfull :)
311 2013-03-28 07:48:31 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: and in both cases there is a src+dst+coin IDs right?
312 2013-03-28 07:48:39 <topi`> slush: well, you get tons of protocols and stuff basically for free.
313 2013-03-28 07:48:45 <slush> yes
314 2013-03-28 07:49:01 <Belxjander> you can validate order by "coin" path based on any given coin ID going from src->dst and any dst becomes the next src4
315 2013-03-28 07:49:05 <Belxjander> src even
316 2013-03-28 07:49:21 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: there is the id of the coin being spent and the new script that describes the requirements for spending the new transaction output.
317 2013-03-28 07:49:32 <topi`> slush: if you need twisted coding help for your upcoming projects, feel free to contact me ;) I work for bitcoin!
318 2013-03-28 07:49:39 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: so there is no record of who spent it?
319 2013-03-28 07:49:54 <slush> topi`: where are you from?
320 2013-03-28 07:49:59 <topi`> slush: finland
321 2013-03-28 07:50:01 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: no, only that whomever spent it satisfied the rules stipulated on the coin.
322 2013-03-28 07:50:02 <Belxjander> slush: you are the slushies pool guy?
323 2013-03-28 07:50:13 <slush> Belxjander: most likely yes
324 2013-03-28 07:50:22 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: yes, you see X->A then another txn X->B .... I see X->B then later X->A.
325 2013-03-28 07:50:39 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: hrmm... I still need to get to grips with the messaging basics over the network to get the blockchain from origin first
326 2013-03-28 07:50:40 <slush> topi`: hm, can you send me a contact to info@bitcoin.cz, with some references to your previous projects?
327 2013-03-28 07:50:47 <gmaxwell> "<slush> Why? do I^W^Wdoes he owe you money?"
328 2013-03-28 07:50:56 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: within the same "block" of the chain?
329 2013-03-28 07:51:15 <slush> gmaxwell: eh, what? :)
330 2013-03-28 07:51:17 <topi`> slush: I'm currently employed on a medical data project, but would want to do something bitcoin-related
331 2013-03-28 07:51:23 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: there is no block yet??? the blockchain is what in bitcoin solves this problem.
332 2013-03-28 07:51:28 <Belxjander> slush: I only recently joined your mining pool... trying to get an FPGA in my Amiga doing a little bit of hashing
333 2013-03-28 07:51:41 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: so the transactions build the blocks?
334 2013-03-28 07:51:48 <gmaxwell> slush: commenting on "slush: you are the slushies pool guy?" "Belxjander: most likely yes". :)
335 2013-03-28 07:51:58 <slush> lol, that :D
336 2013-03-28 07:52:02 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: no. The blocks establish an official ordering of the transactions.
337 2013-03-28 07:52:06 <slush> Belxjander: then good luck ;)
338 2013-03-28 07:52:48 <topi`> Belxjander: sounds like a fun project. I no longer have my Amiga 3000 operational, the keyboard controller or something was broken
339 2013-03-28 07:52:49 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: then I *definitely* need to get python 2.7.4rc1 replacing the python2.5.5 and update the Amiga module to include FPGA.resource access
340 2013-03-28 07:53:01 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: the mining process is basically a kind of lottery... some lucky computer cycle gets elected by the network to make its idea of the order the official order.
341 2013-03-28 07:53:27 <Belxjander> topi`: I have a sam440ep-flex machine so the starting blocks for me is a PowerPC @ 667MHz + FPGA clockable to the same within breaking 20watts of power draw
342 2013-03-28 07:53:43 <Belxjander> s/within/without
343 2013-03-28 07:54:18 <topi`> Belxjander: you need to take into consideration the fact that the bitcoind is not endian-clean, i.e. it only works correctly on little-endian
344 2013-03-28 07:54:22 <Belxjander> or I can leave it with the "IO" program that is the default and use the 80pin connected wired to it for custom hardware
345 2013-03-28 07:54:26 <topi`> and ppc is big-endian, or it was when I was programming it in 2001
346 2013-03-28 07:54:55 <Belxjander> topace: there are "reverse-" byte order read/write instructions in assembler that I already have VirtualMachineManager routines written to use
347 2013-03-28 07:55:00 <Belxjander> so I will re-use those
348 2013-03-28 07:55:11 <topi`> oh, interesting
349 2013-03-28 07:55:14 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: topi`: one of the bitcoiners who sometimes hangs out in #bitcoin-otc has an Amiga 3000 with Amiga Unix!
350 2013-03-28 07:55:15 <Belxjander> since they simply read LE from ram to BE in registers and reverse when writing
351 2013-03-28 07:55:29 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: and an ethernet adaptor. And gcc 1.3
352 2013-03-28 07:55:40 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: holy shit!!, I had all except the tape drive and software for that setup at one point
353 2013-03-28 07:55:51 <topi`> gmaxwell: that's pretty much museum stuff :)
354 2013-03-28 07:56:25 <gmaxwell> I had a good time logging into it and testing out some of my software. ... current gnu tar produces tarfiles that segfault the old AT&T tar on it. :P
355 2013-03-28 07:56:26 <Belxjander> topi`: well if you want to see the existing VMM work I have got public its on google code... look for the same username as what I am using now
356 2013-03-28 07:56:37 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, ah, I missed where you posted those stats. Is that blockhain.info data? I could only find http://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction . Is that the average per-block transaction fee payload?
357 2013-03-28 07:56:40 <gmaxwell> I had an a4000 at one point.
358 2013-03-28 07:57:20 <topi`> slush: what I am mainly thinking, is that we need a funding model, like kickstarter, for funding bitcoin-related projects (if there are any great ideas)
359 2013-03-28 07:57:23 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: I measured it myself from the blockchain when you asked, I pasted the shell script. Also:
360 2013-03-28 07:57:27 <gmaxwell> 01:33 < gmaxwell> 25 BTC of the reward is subsidy (not fee).
361 2013-03-28 07:57:40 <topi`> slush: so if you want to build a kickstarter-clone based on BTC economy, i'd like to help out ;)
362 2013-03-28 07:57:58 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: but yes, thats the average (and median,max,min, etc) for the last 1000 blocks (about a week)
363 2013-03-28 07:58:12 <slush> I think there are such services already. They're just lacking marketing and the community
364 2013-03-28 07:58:21 <Belxjander> topi`: well the only idea I have at the moment is to make an AppEngine python instance where I can pull ticker data from the blockchain...
365 2013-03-28 07:58:23 <topi`> slush: but you know how to do the marketing ;)
366 2013-03-28 07:58:27 <slush> actually the programming part is the easier one
367 2013-03-28 07:58:32 <slush> not really :(
368 2013-03-28 07:58:34 <gmaxwell> "scamstarter" :P
369 2013-03-28 07:58:37 <topi`> slush: agreed
370 2013-03-28 07:58:48 <Belxjander> but it will only be able to cache 5GB of data at any time
371 2013-03-28 07:58:59 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: the blockchain is not a good broadcast channel for non-transaction data.
372 2013-03-28 07:59:22 <topi`> slush: my idea would take advantage of the multiple-signing transactions (so that if goal is not met, the tx is dismissed)
373 2013-03-28 07:59:30 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I'll want to start with being able to peer and save the blockchain on my machine here
374 2013-03-28 07:59:55 <Belxjander> though I still need to actively enable reiserfs on my Amiga for having a decent amount of HDD space (2nnd drive is a single partition 500GB device)
375 2013-03-28 08:00:09 <topi`> Belxjander: I have no experience of AppEngine, I have my own host on the fixed net.
376 2013-03-28 08:00:10 <gmaxwell> "Hopefully you're not married?"
377 2013-03-28 08:01:02 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: WHO?
378 2013-03-28 08:01:03 <topi`> slush: did you meet genjix in Prague?
379 2013-03-28 08:01:26 <Belxjander> ACTION IS married and has a 9-month old son :P
380 2013-03-28 08:01:53 <gmaxwell> It's probably best that my tasteless humor there wooshed you.
381 2013-03-28 08:01:57 <topi`> Belxjander: our son is 0x12 months now ;)
382 2013-03-28 08:02:13 <Belxjander> topi`: WSGI Python scripting / Java Web Application / "Go" Web Application << take your pick... but I would stay with the python runtime :)
383 2013-03-28 08:02:33 <topi`> Belxjander: python would be definitely my pick as well
384 2013-03-28 08:02:38 <gmaxwell> topi`: watch out, luke will convert you to tonal.
385 2013-03-28 08:02:57 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: what?
386 2013-03-28 08:03:27 <topi`> gmaxwell: when I joined this channel back in april 2011, I was convinced that the whole bitcoin-dev was a bunch of loonies (since luke was talking btc amounts in tonal...)
387 2013-03-28 08:03:44 <flyingkiwiguy> and your opion has changed?
388 2013-03-28 08:03:49 <flyingkiwiguy> *opinion
389 2013-03-28 08:03:53 <topi`> well, not that much :D
390 2013-03-28 08:03:54 <Belxjander> flyingkiwiguy: NZ?
391 2013-03-28 08:04:05 <flyingkiwiguy> formerly of NZ
392 2013-03-28 08:04:10 <Rebroad> https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=135 - WTF?! Blocksize limit "needs" to be raised?!
393 2013-03-28 08:04:12 <Belxjander> flyingkiwiguy: same... in Japan myself
394 2013-03-28 08:04:18 <flyingkiwiguy> currently London, soon to be Swizterland
395 2013-03-28 08:04:26 <topi`> Rebroad: that's one opinion. there are other opinions as well
396 2013-03-28 08:04:49 <gmaxwell> and on that cue???
397 2013-03-28 08:04:53 <gmaxwell> ACTION says goodnight
398 2013-03-28 08:04:57 <flyingkiwiguy> nn
399 2013-03-28 08:04:58 <topi`> flyingkiwiguy: have you seen genjix? he used to give talks in london
400 2013-03-28 08:05:06 <flyingkiwiguy> not recently
401 2013-03-28 08:05:19 <flyingkiwiguy> a newspaper article had him squatting somewhere in London
402 2013-03-28 08:05:22 <topi`> flyingkiwiguy: he's kind of disappeared. that's too bad, since he was good at community making
403 2013-03-28 08:05:37 <flyingkiwiguy> yeah
404 2013-03-28 08:06:10 <topi`> we met in Amsterdam back in 2011, he was the one who introduced me to bitcoins
405 2013-03-28 08:06:16 <flyingkiwiguy> "Mihai Alisie, editor of Bitcoin Magazine, and Amir Taaki, a Bitcoin developer and activist, in a squat in London" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/22/silk-road-online-drug-marketplace
406 2013-03-28 08:06:31 <flyingkiwiguy> same here in July 2011
407 2013-03-28 08:06:37 <topi`> and now i'm soon a millionaire, borrowing maxkeiser's words ;)
408 2013-03-28 08:06:42 <flyingkiwiguy> I was tryign to find investors in Intersango for him
409 2013-03-28 08:07:04 <Rebroad> what is the deal with Intersango right now? Are they trading GBP?
410 2013-03-28 08:07:16 <flyingkiwiguy> GBP bank acct shut down, so not really
411 2013-03-28 08:07:31 <flyingkiwiguy> ACTION uses bitcoin-24 these days
412 2013-03-28 08:07:47 <Rebroad> it seems odd that they're still posting exchange rates for GBP then...
413 2013-03-28 08:08:12 <Rebroad> (OT for dev.. sorry)
414 2013-03-28 08:08:40 <flyingkiwiguy> https://support.intersango.com/status
415 2013-03-28 08:09:13 <topi`> Rebroad: I think you can withdraw GBP, but not deposit
416 2013-03-28 08:09:50 <topi`> they had difficulties with their back already back in 2011, I think, so I'm not very surprised. the SEPA transfers are handled by a Polish bank, which seems to be more relaxed.
417 2013-03-28 08:10:03 <flyingkiwiguy> back !OT - I'm trying to performance test bitcoind, and incidentially are now generating a bit of pseudo-traffic on testnet3
418 2013-03-28 08:10:18 <flyingkiwiguy> UK banks are probelmatic
419 2013-03-28 08:10:48 <flyingkiwiguy> has anyone published performance metrics for bitcoind 0.8.x?
420 2013-03-28 08:11:18 <flyingkiwiguy> I seem to get about 6 tx/minute/bitcoind
421 2013-03-28 08:11:30 <flyingkiwiguy> depededent on # of inputs
422 2013-03-28 08:12:05 <Belxjander> any good bitcoin/bitcoind "Wallet"/"management" examples in python without mining support?
423 2013-03-28 08:12:05 <flyingkiwiguy> *dependant (too much time in teh USA...)
424 2013-03-28 08:12:15 <qdii> hey
425 2013-03-28 08:13:50 <topi`> Belxjander: you could check out jgarzik's python tools for bitcoin
426 2013-03-28 08:15:19 <Belxjander> topi`: cool, grabbed a zip of that earlier
427 2013-03-28 08:16:17 <MC1984> i though sango had sepa gbp facility
428 2013-03-28 08:16:29 <MC1984> they cant get a uk bank acount anymore nor can anyone else
429 2013-03-28 08:20:43 <Belxjander> ACTION will stick with downloading the blockchain as a #1 activity
430 2013-03-28 08:20:58 <Belxjander> and then start seeing about a "local" Wallet on this Amiga
431 2013-03-28 08:21:13 <Belxjander> after that I will see what I can do about connecting this FPGA for hashing
432 2013-03-28 08:28:36 <denisx> is there a dollar/difficulty chart anywhere?
433 2013-03-28 08:31:49 <warren> It'd be great if we could easily chart that data along with this stuff: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/
434 2013-03-28 08:32:31 <digitalmagus> warren: does 'FRED' offer the raw data?
435 2013-03-28 08:32:36 <digitalmagus> or just precompiled charts?
436 2013-03-28 08:32:49 <warren> digitalmagus: both
437 2013-03-28 08:32:59 <digitalmagus> then it's theoretically possible :)
438 2013-03-28 08:33:20 <digitalmagus> I must say the federal reserve sux, but they do offer lots of great chart porn
439 2013-03-28 08:33:48 <abadr> I'm reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fee, trying to figure out how much transaction fee to include in my raw transactions. When they refer to the "size" of a transaction, is that when they're hex-encoded as in the output of "getrawtransaction", or would it be the equivalent size in bytes instead of hex?
440 2013-03-28 08:34:37 <RoboTeddy> abadr: I'm not familiar with the code, but I would be surprised if it weren't the actual size in bytes
441 2013-03-28 08:34:39 <warren> digitalmagus: the fun stuff doesn't have free public charts
442 2013-03-28 08:34:48 <warren> digitalmagus: commodities futures markets
443 2013-03-28 08:35:27 <RoboTeddy> abadr: the size in bytes is likely what miners have to incorporate in the list of transactions, so mining cost/transaction is proportional to size in bytes
444 2013-03-28 08:36:05 <RoboTeddy> abadr: (but I am just speculating)
445 2013-03-28 08:36:10 <abadr> kk
446 2013-03-28 08:43:33 <toffoo> re-indexing complete
447 2013-03-28 08:44:18 <toffoo> 1hr 26mins
448 2013-03-28 08:44:39 <toffoo> lucky i have a wicked macbook retina with SSD
449 2013-03-28 08:45:50 <toffoo> because i sure didn't think i'd have to sit thru that more than once
450 2013-03-28 08:48:05 <MC1984> not bad
451 2013-03-28 08:48:26 <MC1984> i dont think SSDs should be that much better than spinny discs anymore
452 2013-03-28 08:48:30 <MC1984> for bitcoin
453 2013-03-28 08:48:37 <MC1984> CPU is the bottleneck now
454 2013-03-28 08:48:55 <MC1984> though i still consider checkpointed syncs as cheating somewhat
455 2013-03-28 08:49:19 <MC1984> yet another necessary evil
456 2013-03-28 08:51:37 <topi`> toffoo: my 0.8.0 is *still* reindexing, now in january
457 2013-03-28 08:52:41 <toffoo> january?
458 2013-03-28 08:52:54 <topi`> toffoo: reindexing at block 216173, which happened in january
459 2013-03-28 08:52:59 <topi`> so still 2 months to catch :)
460 2013-03-28 08:53:02 <toffoo> ah ok
461 2013-03-28 08:53:23 <topi`> toffoo: as somebody just told me, 0.8.1 has a checkpoint in march
462 2013-03-28 08:53:24 <toffoo> ya it seems to go slower as it moves along too ;(
463 2013-03-28 08:53:27 <topi`> so a lot less reindexing
464 2013-03-28 08:54:24 <toffoo> yes mine is 0.8.1 and it took almost 1.5 hrs on a very fast machine
465 2013-03-28 08:54:25 <denisx> topi`: yes, it was me
466 2013-03-28 08:54:33 <denisx> you should upgrade to 0.8.1 anyway
467 2013-03-28 08:54:47 <topi`> probably so. any bad bugs
468 2013-03-28 08:54:48 <topi`> ?
469 2013-03-28 08:55:18 <denisx> topi`: 0.8.1 has very few but important changes
470 2013-03-28 08:56:16 <denisx> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2373
471 2013-03-28 08:56:20 <denisx> look for yourself
472 2013-03-28 08:57:59 <topi`> denisx: it looks like only stuff that is important for miners, namely the 500k limit and a checkblock rule
473 2013-03-28 08:58:22 <denisx> topi`: yes, and the new checkpoint
474 2013-03-28 08:58:33 <denisx> and that you cant seed an invalid block to others
475 2013-03-28 08:59:50 <topi`> ok, I guess that might make it easier to avoid such forks
476 2013-03-28 08:59:55 <topi`> even for non-miners
477 2013-03-28 09:02:23 <qdii> why is there irc.{cpp,h} on the src code?
478 2013-03-28 09:02:32 <qdii> ACTION going through the source code
479 2013-03-28 09:02:55 <qdii> ACTION appalled by the Win32 Syntax
480 2013-03-28 09:04:34 <sipa> qdii: historically, that is how bitcoin bootstrapped
481 2013-03-28 09:05:01 <sipa> it's been off by default for ages and will probably be removed soon
482 2013-03-28 09:05:33 <qdii> ah okay :) for a moment I??thought you wanted to integrate a chat option to the official client
483 2013-03-28 09:05:53 <sipa> hell no :)
484 2013-03-28 09:06:05 <warren> bitcoin is technically a botnet, and don't botnets use IRC for communication? =)
485 2013-03-28 09:06:05 <whizter> how can i calculate the public-key (hex-hash) of a bitcoin address?
486 2013-03-28 09:06:29 <qdii> warren: good point
487 2013-03-28 09:08:54 <topi`> whizter: I bet there's plenty of javascript on the 'net for just that
488 2013-03-28 09:09:26 <SomeoneWeird> warren, lol
489 2013-03-28 09:10:08 <sipa> whizter: an address is the base58check-encoded hash of the public key
490 2013-03-28 09:10:36 <whizter> sipa, thanks
491 2013-03-28 09:10:39 <sipa> whizter: given an address you can find that hash easily, but not the full original public key
492 2013-03-28 09:11:17 <whizter> ok, I just need the short version for mtgox api which doesn't accept the address, just the hash
493 2013-03-28 09:11:38 <sipa> that's weird
494 2013-03-28 09:11:44 <whizter> yes
495 2013-03-28 09:11:50 <qdii> so what's the developing cycle of bitcoin-qt? when you guys commit a bug, is there a dev version first, then testing, then release?
496 2013-03-28 09:12:40 <sipa> qdii: git head and pull requests are always tested by a script
497 2013-03-28 09:12:53 <Happzz> so i found a bug
498 2013-03-28 09:13:00 <whizter> sipa, MagicalTux says it adds to much weight to accept the address
499 2013-03-28 09:13:01 <Happzz> if you enter walletpassphrase "password" 0
500 2013-03-28 09:13:04 <Happzz> bitcoin-qt crashes
501 2013-03-28 09:13:22 <Happzz> 0.8.0
502 2013-03-28 09:13:31 <sipa> qdii: at some point there's a feature freeze, then release candidates, and then a final version
503 2013-03-28 09:14:05 <sipa> qdii: releases are determinustically built on gitian, so you can verify they match the git tagged source
504 2013-03-28 09:14:12 <sipa> Happzz: interesting
505 2013-03-28 09:14:33 <qdii> sipa: what does the test script do?
506 2013-03-28 09:15:00 <Happzz> sipa also, on another matter, why does it take bitcoin-qt so long to import a private key
507 2013-03-28 09:15:05 <Happzz> i realize it needs to scan everything
508 2013-03-28 09:15:11 <Happzz> but it wasn't even used before
509 2013-03-28 09:15:17 <Happzz> so it's not like there's much to compute..
510 2013-03-28 09:15:41 <sipa> qdii: run unit tests, and there's an integration test which feeds it a series of blocks designed to trigger edge cases
511 2013-03-28 09:15:56 <sipa> Happzz: it doesn't know that it wasn't used before
512 2013-03-28 09:16:19 <Happzz> it takes far too long :(
513 2013-03-28 09:16:24 <sipa> Happzz: you can add a 'false' after importprivkey key to make it skip the rescan
514 2013-03-28 09:16:32 <Happzz> aw
515 2013-03-28 09:17:00 <sipa> qdii: pulltester by BlueMatt
516 2013-03-28 09:26:39 <abadr> is there a way I can get bitcoind to help me calculate the mandatory transaction fee for a raw transaction I'm creating?
517 2013-03-28 09:28:20 <sipa> abadr: 0.0005 per kB
518 2013-03-28 09:29:54 <abadr> where the size in bytes is len(createrawtransaction_output) / 2 ?
519 2013-03-28 09:30:08 <topi`> I think luke's pool is still accepting txfeeless transactions?
520 2013-03-28 09:33:51 <sipa> and it's mandatory if there are outputs below 0.01 BTC, or if the bitcoin days destroyed per byte is less than 0.004
521 2013-03-28 09:34:04 <sipa> abadr: indeed
522 2013-03-28 09:34:13 <Grishnap> hmm, gmaxwell, thanks for that shell script. Also, in your statistics you mention a subsidy of 25 btc per block. Payoffs were like only slightly higher than 25 for the most part. Is this 25 BTC subsidy the coveted "miner's fee" that has prompted the hashing arms race?
523 2013-03-28 09:34:52 <sipa> Grishnap: sure, miners receive the introduction of new coins in the system
524 2013-03-28 09:35:01 <abadr> so I construct an initial txn, sign it, calculate fees, then change it to reduce the outputs by the fee amount, resign, and send
525 2013-03-28 09:35:04 <abadr> but what if after i resign it it's bigger? <:|
526 2013-03-28 09:35:57 <sipa> abadr: account for the signature size in advance :)
527 2013-03-28 09:36:14 <Grishnap> thanks sipa
528 2013-03-28 09:42:03 <abadr> ty
529 2013-03-28 09:49:42 <Happzz> anyone with testnet coins?
530 2013-03-28 09:49:44 <Happzz> i needs ome
531 2013-03-28 09:54:10 <rebroad_> Happzz, tried a faucet?
532 2013-03-28 09:54:13 <Blaster_> hey can anyone tell me what a wallet.enc is? I lost access to my wallet and I am wondering what this file might be
533 2013-03-28 09:54:23 <Happzz> rebroad_ can't find any
534 2013-03-28 10:08:03 <Happzz> umm
535 2013-03-28 10:08:04 <Happzz> testnet:
536 2013-03-28 10:08:05 <Happzz> [2013-03-28 13:06:16] Found block for pool 0!
537 2013-03-28 10:08:05 <Happzz> [2013-03-28 13:06:16] Rejected 00f6615b Diff 265/1 BLOCK! GPU 0
538 2013-03-28 10:08:05 <Happzz> [2013-03-28 13:06:32] Found block for pool 0!
539 2013-03-28 10:08:05 <Happzz> [2013-03-28 13:06:32] Rejected a6962b9d Diff 1/1 BLOCK! GPU 0
540 2013-03-28 10:08:06 <Happzz> [2013-03-28 13:06:45] New block detected on network
541 2013-03-28 10:08:10 <Happzz> any idea why?
542 2013-03-28 10:26:39 <flyingkiwiguy> Happzz: could be because someone else found it first?
543 2013-03-28 10:27:40 <flyingkiwiguy> I got the impression that people were requested not to use GPUs on testnet3
544 2013-03-28 10:28:15 <denisx> flyingkiwiguy: there is no "found it first"
545 2013-03-28 10:46:03 <finway> Question about double spend: if there's tx A which is ledgit, tx B which is double spend. if tx A is in almost in every node's mempool , will tx B be rejected by these nodes ?
546 2013-03-28 10:46:20 <finway> *legit
547 2013-03-28 10:46:35 <johnsoft> yes
548 2013-03-28 10:46:47 <johnsoft> inputs are first come first serve
549 2013-03-28 10:46:58 <johnsoft> on the official client at least
550 2013-03-28 10:48:20 <finway> If a unconfirmed tx is waiting too long ( like 144 blocks) and have not made in blocks, will it disapper or be cleaned ?
551 2013-03-28 10:48:46 <finway> * waiting for too long --sorry for my english
552 2013-03-28 10:49:20 <flyingkiwiguy> denisx: I sit corrected!
553 2013-03-28 10:49:32 <johnsoft> that i have no idea
554 2013-03-28 10:49:48 <johnsoft> i assume if it isn't confirmed for 144 blocks, there's something wrong with it
555 2013-03-28 12:39:16 <MC1984> strange question
556 2013-03-28 12:39:28 <MC1984> does running p2pool without mining on it help the network anyway
557 2013-03-28 12:40:56 <rdponticelli> MC1984: Yes, it would help the p2pool network
558 2013-03-28 12:41:15 <rdponticelli> Specially if you have your port open
559 2013-03-28 12:41:37 <MC1984> how exactly
560 2013-03-28 12:42:43 <rdponticelli> Relaying transactions, helping on peer discovery...
561 2013-03-28 12:43:00 <rdponticelli> s/transactions/shares/
562 2013-03-28 12:43:14 <MC1984> so its a lot like bitcoin in that regard
563 2013-03-28 12:44:13 <rdponticelli> Yeah, it's a lot like most p2p stuff
564 2013-03-28 12:44:43 <rdponticelli> The most, the merrier :)
565 2013-03-28 12:45:01 <MC1984> hmm i dont know if ive got the ram for this
566 2013-03-28 12:45:19 <MC1984> i already run bitcoin to help out
567 2013-03-28 12:46:50 <MC1984> does bitcoind have a -verbose switch or whatever
568 2013-03-28 12:47:36 <rdponticelli> MC1984: -debug
569 2013-03-28 12:47:53 <MC1984> ok
570 2013-03-28 12:48:11 <MC1984> maybe i can rig up a batch file to start bitcoind and p2pool together
571 2013-03-28 12:50:47 <MC1984> its probably going to be a shit to make sure bitcoin starts before p2pool eh
572 2013-03-28 12:51:03 <MC1984> maybe ill have to use the ping trick
573 2013-03-28 12:52:08 <sipa> no need to guarantee that
574 2013-03-28 12:52:16 <rdponticelli> MC1984: It doesn't matters, p2pool keeps trying until bitcoind is ready
575 2013-03-28 12:52:18 <sipa> p2pool will detect that bitcoind is down, and poll until it's back
576 2013-03-28 12:52:27 <MC1984> oh cool
577 2013-03-28 12:58:31 <Eliel_> anyone know what's up with en.bitcoin.it domain? it's not resolving.
578 2013-03-28 13:00:41 <kinlo> they're playing with it
579 2013-03-28 13:00:48 <kinlo> Last Update: 2013-03-28 14:38:53
580 2013-03-28 13:01:12 <kinlo> if that's CET, and I believe it is, that's like 20 minutes ago that they've changed the domain information
581 2013-03-28 13:01:42 <MC1984> what i need is a little server which i can stuff with as many nifty p2p projects as i can find
582 2013-03-28 13:01:48 <kinlo> don't know if it already was cloudflare, but it's configured ot be hosted on cloudflare now... probably still busy with that setup
583 2013-03-28 13:02:35 <sipa> MC1984: a vps?
584 2013-03-28 13:02:57 <MC1984> maybe
585 2013-03-28 13:03:15 <MC1984> i hear a bitcoin is heayweight even on its own on a vps though
586 2013-03-28 13:03:36 <MC1984> and i consider it cheating a bit and not in the spirit of p2p
587 2013-03-28 13:03:52 <Graet> depends on the power of your vps :P
588 2013-03-28 13:04:09 <helo> sipa: interested in anything in particular? another "Misbehaving: 173.67.188.121:8333 (90 -> 100) DISCONNECTING" -> CHECKSUM ERROR x 2 -> glibc error sigabrt? have gdb sitting at #11 0x00000000005d3ea7 in ThreadSocketHandler2 (parg=0x0) at src/net.cpp:98
589 2013-03-28 13:04:13 <MC1984> in fact i used to have a little 1U under the desk but it died
590 2013-03-28 13:04:15 <Graet> dual cpu 8gb ram is fine ;)
591 2013-03-28 13:04:30 <MC1984> i even ran skype altruistically back when it was actually a p2p network
592 2013-03-28 13:04:43 <MC1984> a supernode
593 2013-03-28 13:04:47 <sipa> helo: yeah, i've seen things like that several times already, but i can't find it
594 2013-03-28 13:04:57 <sipa> helo: going to try to reproduce in valgrind
595 2013-03-28 13:05:17 <helo> *src/net.cpp:986
596 2013-03-28 13:08:54 <JWU42> any good info on how to avoid (minimize0 orphan blocks as a solo miner?
597 2013-03-28 13:12:49 <Graet> have a fast upload and dont find blocks at same time as other miners :)
598 2013-03-28 13:13:57 <JWU42> wiseass ;)
599 2013-03-28 13:14:12 <Graet> :)
600 2013-03-28 13:14:19 <Graet> serioulsy thats it
601 2013-03-28 13:14:38 <Graet> the advantage pools have is good upload bandwith compoared to most residential miners
602 2013-03-28 13:14:46 <Graet> which helps with propagation
603 2013-03-28 13:14:51 <JWU42> agreed
604 2013-03-28 13:15:14 <JWU42> 4 Mbps isn't 1 Gbps
605 2013-03-28 13:15:16 <JWU42> ;)
606 2013-03-28 13:15:51 <Graet> :)
607 2013-03-28 13:20:18 <JWU42> EC2 would be sufficiently large pipe you would think...
608 2013-03-28 13:20:31 <Graet> yes
609 2013-03-28 13:20:53 <JWU42> 30 connects would be sufficient
610 2013-03-28 13:21:32 <JWU42> Luke and gmaxwell were hinting that more isn't better with mining nodes
611 2013-03-28 13:21:37 <JWU42> IIRC
612 2013-03-28 13:27:53 <helo> sounds legit
613 2013-03-28 13:29:18 <Belxjander> Graet: distributed "upload" of results really then?
614 2013-03-28 13:29:33 <Belxjander> Graet: the more distributed workers you have with decent links the better for any given "pool"?
615 2013-03-28 13:30:34 <Graet> the better connection pools have to other quick nodes helps propagation,
616 2013-03-28 13:31:43 <abadr> how do I get the configuration of an already-running bitcoind?
617 2013-03-28 13:34:12 <sipa> abadr: hmm?
618 2013-03-28 13:34:51 <abadr> is it possible to tell it to dump it's configuration params? like what flags it ended up with after reading the command line and .conf file
619 2013-03-28 13:35:03 <sipa> hmm, no
620 2013-03-28 13:35:08 <sipa> i guess that would make sense to have
621 2013-03-28 13:35:24 <abadr> it would be helpful to me at this particular moment :)