1 2013-06-16 00:14:25 <roconnor> sipa: If I were to redesign bitcoin, would it be better to get rid of the notion of a coin and actually use a ledger? It seems that an actual ledger would somewhat mitigate the dust issues and I see no practical downside.
2 2013-06-16 00:17:20 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: where's the privacy?
3 2013-06-16 00:27:56 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: One could still have multiple accounts. I think the privacy implications would be equiavlent to the current coin method.
4 2013-06-16 00:28:23 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: right now, nobody can identify accounts, and identifying wallets is difficult
5 2013-06-16 00:28:25 <roconnor> Having multiple account means the dust problem isn't eliminated. only reduced.
6 2013-06-16 00:30:04 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: basically I want to identify coins with the same "adderess" where by "address" I mean script
7 2013-06-16 00:31:00 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: there should only be one of those with Bitcoin
8 2013-06-16 00:31:00 <roconnor> The relative privacy implications are none because right now anyone can notice that coins that are spent the the same "address" are owned by the same entity.
9 2013-06-16 00:31:12 <Luke-Jr> addresses are single-use
10 2013-06-16 00:32:09 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: So you are saying you shouldn't hand out flier with a bitcoin donation address? Eliminating multiple use addresses seems to be a difficult sell.
11 2013-06-16 00:32:24 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: the payment protocol should solve it
12 2013-06-16 00:32:37 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: sounds reasonable. Do you have something in mind?
13 2013-06-16 00:32:50 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: the one Gavin's been working on for months? :P
14 2013-06-16 00:33:31 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: something like a HD-wallet? where the sender uses a salt to pick out a public key?
15 2013-06-16 00:33:49 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: I could be sold on this idea.
16 2013-06-16 00:34:40 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: thanks
17 2013-06-16 00:38:34 <roconnor> One wouldn't be able to force the sender to use a random salt, but still.
18 2013-06-16 00:38:50 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: the payment protocol has the server send the scriptPubKey to use
19 2013-06-16 00:38:58 <Luke-Jr> so the sender doesn't know anything about the internal workings
20 2013-06-16 00:42:31 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: that sounds like it doesn't work for offline transactions
21 2013-06-16 00:42:59 <Luke-Jr> offline transactions don't work period..
22 2013-06-16 00:44:16 <roconnor> Well ... I can give a non network machine a payment address and it will spit out an bitcoin transaction that I can sneaker-net over to a networked machine.
23 2013-06-16 00:44:57 <roconnor> maybe I can still sneaker-net the payment protocol
24 2013-06-16 01:23:47 <porquilho> alk
25 2013-06-16 02:20:05 <jchp> is there any update on the particulars on the payment protocol beyond the gist on github from a couple months ago?
26 2013-06-16 06:02:06 <XertroV> Has there been any work into modelling the bitcoin network - in terms of block production and propagation?
27 2013-06-16 08:11:34 <nado> hi, for localization, do i need to register on transifex or can i simply send pull request ?
28 2013-06-16 08:13:03 <sipa> use transifex
29 2013-06-16 08:13:28 <sipa> if you do it directly in the source, it will be overwritten the next time translations are pulled from transifex anyway
30 2013-06-16 08:17:48 <nado> hmm, is that the right project ? https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/bitcoin-wallet
31 2013-06-16 08:18:33 <nado> because some strings dont match in the bitcoin_??.ts
32 2013-06-16 08:19:44 <sipa> https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/bitcoin/
33 2013-06-16 08:20:01 <sipa> bitcoin-wallet is for the "Bitcoin Wallet for Android" project
34 2013-06-16 08:26:43 <nado> ok, thanks
35 2013-06-16 08:41:51 <warren> Hmm, what is the git syntax to pull this out as a format-patch on its own? https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/c1d79812f428860e6f624835851d6f3ecd86bbb3
36 2013-06-16 08:42:37 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/c1d79812f428860e6f624835851d6f3ecd86bbb3.patch
37 2013-06-16 08:42:41 <sipa> :p
38 2013-06-16 08:42:45 <warren> hahaha
39 2013-06-16 08:42:46 <warren> thanks
40 2013-06-16 08:43:47 <warren> There's no good git syntax to do it?
41 2013-06-16 08:44:04 <nado> transifex is awful to correct online :/
42 2013-06-16 08:44:05 <warren> variations that I've tried dump hundreds of patches =)
43 2013-06-16 08:44:54 <nado> git diff to have a patch, no ?
44 2013-06-16 08:45:10 <nado> and you get patch by file
45 2013-06-16 08:45:39 <warren> does that have the header with author and date?
46 2013-06-16 08:46:22 <nado> nope
47 2013-06-16 08:46:57 <warren> yeah, I want to retain that
48 2013-06-16 09:20:46 <knotwork> What combination of ", ' and/or \\ is needed to pass a message to bitcoind signmessage command?
49 2013-06-16 09:21:30 <knotwork> I have tried "message" and ""message"" etc, and \\"message\\" and \\"\\"message \\"\\" and all kinds of combinations of multiple \\ and multiple " and/or ' and not found yet any that work
50 2013-06-16 09:21:51 <Jouke> OS?
51 2013-06-16 09:22:07 <knotwork> I am in bash doing bitcoind signmessage address then trying to follwo that with an actual message
52 2013-06-16 09:22:33 <knotwork> Fedora 17 linux though any bash or sh on unix-type OS should all pretty much work the same
53 2013-06-16 09:22:56 <knotwork> it would maybe be more useful to at least be useful to have a cversion where you tell it a filename of a file to sign
54 2013-06-16 09:23:20 <knotwork> but I guess once the outer quoting problem is solved imbedding linefeeds should not be too hard
55 2013-06-16 09:23:59 <knotwork> But maybe the outer bitcoind parses somehow itself before passing along to the resident daemon copy of bitcoind?
56 2013-06-16 09:24:01 <Jouke> ./bitcoind signmessage 176RBcuHmoYxENAbnET5mdhNE1jq28eUXT "Test 321"
57 2013-06-16 09:24:12 <Jouke> H6MRZ6pu2wTY5X4PwR/iItDvE3ga7KBjDtGAAc1oqO/KiIzJ5VLbkXIxZMy8T3RAj93uzm64JsMLVvsEkoheoOw=
58 2013-06-16 09:24:17 <Jouke> seems to work?
59 2013-06-16 09:24:24 <knotwork> Doesn't work for me what shell are you using?
60 2013-06-16 09:24:45 <Jouke> bash
61 2013-06-16 09:24:47 <knotwork> [bitcoin@megabox bitcoin]$ ./realbitcoind.sh signmessage 1GumnfaYT9bn7EmFodZqg4f5JVF8UB3D4e "Mark Metson, bitcointalk username markm, 5 units plus USB hub, 5822 Bilby Street Halifax Nova Scotia Canada B3K 1V8"
62 2013-06-16 09:24:47 <knotwork> error: {"code":-1,"message":"signmessage <bitcoinaddress> <message>\\nSign a message with the private key of an address"}
63 2013-06-16 09:25:10 <SomeoneWeird> > ./realbitcoind.sh
64 2013-06-16 09:25:11 <knotwork> Maybe commas fuck it up?
65 2013-06-16 09:25:17 <Jouke> what does your script look like?
66 2013-06-16 09:25:37 <matjeh> realbitcoind.sh? will the real bitcoind please stand up
67 2013-06-16 09:25:37 <sipa> what exact command do you execute and what error do you get?
68 2013-06-16 09:25:56 <Jouke> knotwork: you probably only used $1
69 2013-06-16 09:26:06 <knotwork> after defineing BITCOIND and checking there are args, it does $BITCOIND -rpcuser=xxx -rpcpassword=xxxxxx $*
70 2013-06-16 09:26:11 <knotwork> $*
71 2013-06-16 09:26:12 <Jouke> add $2 $3 $4
72 2013-06-16 09:26:14 <Jouke> oh
73 2013-06-16 09:26:42 <knotwork> yeah real was tio distinguish it from all the clone coins
74 2013-06-16 09:26:43 <sipa> use "$1" etc
75 2013-06-16 09:26:49 <sipa> not just $1
76 2013-06-16 09:27:05 <sipa> otherwise wordsplitting is applied to the argument
77 2013-06-16 09:27:14 <SomeoneWeird> but the clonecoins would be litecoind
78 2013-06-16 09:27:15 <SomeoneWeird> etc
79 2013-06-16 09:27:17 <knotwork> oh so I'd need "$*" ?
80 2013-06-16 09:27:18 <SomeoneWeird> ACTION runs
81 2013-06-16 09:27:25 <knotwork> which woudl muck up multiple args
82 2013-06-16 09:27:28 <sipa> no that won't work either
83 2013-06-16 09:27:40 <sipa> "$@" should work
84 2013-06-16 09:27:47 <knotwork> well there woudl be testbitcoin etc too
85 2013-06-16 09:28:14 <sipa> that's a special form that avoids splitting individual arguments, but doesn't combine the arguments together either
86 2013-06-16 09:28:36 <knotwork> aha cute thanks
87 2013-06-16 09:29:19 <knotwork> yay awesome, "$@" for the win! thanks!
88 2013-06-16 09:29:43 <knotwork> not all my whateverd.sh scripts need fixing but thats good
89 2013-06-16 09:29:47 <knotwork> now
90 2013-06-16 09:32:40 <SomeoneWeird> sed -i "s/\\$1/\\$@/" *coind.sh
91 2013-06-16 09:32:42 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
92 2013-06-16 09:33:56 <knotwork> yike xchat died
93 2013-06-16 09:34:13 <knotwork> sed -i -e "s/\\$*/\\$@/" *coind.sh
94 2013-06-16 09:34:40 <SomeoneWeird> :)
95 2013-06-16 09:35:10 <knotwork> yike not that either, that put $@ at start of each line
96 2013-06-16 09:35:24 <knotwork> maybe \\\\$
97 2013-06-16 09:35:29 <SomeoneWeird> 0.o
98 2013-06-16 09:35:39 <Arnavion> ' instead of "
99 2013-06-16 09:35:49 <Arnavion> Or \\\\ instead of \\
100 2013-06-16 09:36:01 <SomeoneWeird> oh, yah
101 2013-06-16 09:37:56 <matjeh> is there a reason to send coins to 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 other than for the purpose of throwing them away?
102 2013-06-16 09:38:12 <matjeh> i'm assuming noone actually has the private key
103 2013-06-16 09:39:13 <knotwork> also maybe \\* instead of *
104 2013-06-16 09:39:14 <matjeh> yet there's 43 transactions for it
105 2013-06-16 09:39:18 <knotwork> got it now whatever
106 2013-06-16 09:39:29 <knotwork> sed always ends up taking some experimenting to get it right
107 2013-06-16 09:41:06 <sipa> matjeh: indeed, ut's just wasted
108 2013-06-16 09:46:17 <matjeh> similary 1QLbz7JHiBTspS962RLKV8GndWFwi5j6Qr
109 2013-06-16 09:46:21 <matjeh> 2 transactions heh
110 2013-06-16 09:46:50 <sipa> is that a special address?
111 2013-06-16 09:47:05 <matjeh> 20 times 0xff
112 2013-06-16 09:47:12 <sipa> ah
113 2013-06-16 09:47:13 <sipa> yes
114 2013-06-16 09:47:15 <matjeh> sorry, 0x01 + 20 times 0xff
115 2013-06-16 09:47:23 <sipa> got it
116 2013-06-16 09:47:46 <matjeh> just testing an address generator i wrote in c :p
117 2013-06-16 09:48:13 <matjeh> just for learning
118 2013-06-16 10:09:20 <BlueMatt> TheLordOfTime: ping?
119 2013-06-16 10:41:04 <matjeh> next difficulty, 19M?
120 2013-06-16 10:41:13 <sipa> likely
121 2013-06-16 10:56:58 <MC1984> id like to see someone try to mine multiple terahashes thru tor
122 2013-06-16 10:59:08 <MC1984> cos censorable hashrate is hardly hashrate at all, for the threat models a couple of hundred TH is supposed to guard against
123 2013-06-16 11:01:05 <BlueMatt> so go do it
124 2013-06-16 11:01:07 <BlueMatt> its not like its hard
125 2013-06-16 11:02:02 <MC1984> give me 5 years to establish a nation state and collect taxes and ill get back to you
126 2013-06-16 11:02:47 <warren> good luck on the collect taxes part
127 2013-06-16 11:02:52 <warren> ACTION facepalm
128 2013-06-16 11:03:16 <warren> ACTION worries about a Snow Crash-like future.
129 2013-06-16 11:04:05 <duSn> MC1984: what is the tax on saggy pants wearing?
130 2013-06-16 11:04:20 <warren> 200% annual income
131 2013-06-16 11:04:24 <MC1984> why? All i need to do is find some men to whom i can promise some sort of position of power or authority over the plebs if theyll just help me establish this system
132 2013-06-16 11:04:44 <MC1984> dont think id have difficulty finding men like that
133 2013-06-16 11:05:21 <duSn> you've mentioned 'just men' twice now - maybe head to san francisco
134 2013-06-16 11:05:45 <MC1984> lol
135 2013-06-16 11:07:47 <MC1984> fuck was i talking about
136 2013-06-16 11:08:07 <MC1984> oh yes, we have more hashrate but are impoverished in other ways imo
137 2013-06-16 11:09:17 <MC1984> though i am glad a significant chunk of it is now outside US SOI
138 2013-06-16 11:10:07 <warren> FedCoin ... where there is no limit and all new coins are generated by a 2^32bit privkey. No proof of work. Addresses require proof of identity and delegation by a Certificate Authority.
139 2013-06-16 11:11:21 <MC1984> lol that would be the most likely application of cryptocurrency technologies by the sort of establushment we have now
140 2013-06-16 11:12:44 <duSn> 2^32 bit key?
141 2013-06-16 11:21:33 <Vinnie_win> Any crew? Negative.
142 2013-06-16 11:22:25 <warren> MC1984: LOL, the only miner is the IRS who collects a commission.
143 2013-06-16 12:01:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: to check if a signature is canonical, I just have to duplicate the IsCanonicalSignature check exactly?
144 2013-06-16 12:05:12 <lolgnu> Hello
145 2013-06-16 12:05:25 <lolgnu> ?
146 2013-06-16 12:05:25 <lolgnu> Would it be hard to convert bitcoin into backup software+
147 2013-06-16 12:05:58 <BlueMatt> you mean to store your data in the chain?
148 2013-06-16 12:06:09 <BlueMatt> yes, it would...unless you are willing to spend a very large amount of money
149 2013-06-16 12:06:23 <lolgnu> Yes
150 2013-06-16 12:06:28 <lolgnu> A backup blockchain
151 2013-06-16 12:06:34 <BlueMatt> I suggest http://aws.amazon.com/glacier/
152 2013-06-16 12:06:42 <lolgnu> Encrypted, and agreed upon
153 2013-06-16 12:06:44 <BlueMatt> waaaaay cheaper
154 2013-06-16 12:07:19 <BlueMatt> how do you propose getting miners and being attack-resistant if there is no economic incentive?
155 2013-06-16 12:07:27 <BlueMatt> its possible, yes, but its not at all easy
156 2013-06-16 12:08:04 <BlueMatt> plus that idea that everyone has to store everyone else's data suggests you'll end up with a few hundred thousand terabytes just to run a full node
157 2013-06-16 12:08:04 <buZz> BlueMatt: just go offline
158 2013-06-16 12:08:19 <buZz> ;)
159 2013-06-16 12:08:24 <BlueMatt> ?
160 2013-06-16 12:09:05 <lolgnu> BlueMatt: no, I wanted to only store mine and friends backups. So you need like 3x your storage
161 2013-06-16 12:09:20 <BlueMatt> well then why do you want such a complicated system?
162 2013-06-16 12:09:33 <lolgnu> I want p2p backup
163 2013-06-16 12:09:36 <BlueMatt> storing your friend's backups is easy without a complicated pow chain...
164 2013-06-16 12:09:39 <BlueMatt> yea, sure, thats easy
165 2013-06-16 12:09:50 <lolgnu> so if a file change, I want ALL the backups to be updated
166 2013-06-16 12:09:58 <BlueMatt> if there is some amount of trust, then you dont need something like a blockchain
167 2013-06-16 12:10:01 <BlueMatt> ok...
168 2013-06-16 12:10:03 <lolgnu> Now if one backup goes offline for an houre, it will miss 60 minutes of changes
169 2013-06-16 12:10:09 <BlueMatt> ok...
170 2013-06-16 12:10:23 <lolgnu> I need encryption and some way to verify the backup is what it should be
171 2013-06-16 12:10:35 <BlueMatt> ok...
172 2013-06-16 12:10:43 <BlueMatt> this is all trivially possible with existing systems
173 2013-06-16 12:11:09 <lolgnu> Mention one?
174 2013-06-16 12:11:25 <lolgnu> CrashPlan does almost everything, but it isnt open source and it is java
175 2013-06-16 12:11:28 <BlueMatt> well, existing systems that you could roll together easier than bitcoin
176 2013-06-16 12:11:52 <lolgnu> We could call it backupcoin
177 2013-06-16 12:12:04 <BlueMatt> this is just by far the wrong way to go
178 2013-06-16 12:12:04 <lolgnu> miners gets gigabytes of backups
179 2013-06-16 12:12:19 <BlueMatt> wuala, maybe?
180 2013-06-16 12:12:36 <BlueMatt> not oss but it used to be what you are describing
181 2013-06-16 12:12:45 <BlueMatt> and I believe there are oss versions
182 2013-06-16 12:12:57 <lolgnu> Its encryption is safe?
183 2013-06-16 12:13:14 <BlueMatt> they claim it is (and its not hard to make it work right)
184 2013-06-16 12:13:56 <BlueMatt> really, I would just set up an ftp or so and let you and your friends share ftp space
185 2013-06-16 12:14:06 <BlueMatt> there are 100 backup clients that backup securely to ftp or whatever
186 2013-06-16 15:46:20 <owowo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEizHF-NRYs
187 2013-06-16 15:59:32 <shesek> can I configure bitcoind to not keep track of blocks at all, and only use it to push raw transaction?
188 2013-06-16 16:03:36 <BlueMatt> not bitcoind, no
189 2013-06-16 16:03:40 <BlueMatt> but there are other libs that can do it
190 2013-06-16 16:05:54 <Subo1978_> shesek: use http://blockchain.info/pushtx
191 2013-06-16 16:06:07 <BlueMatt> or..dont use that
192 2013-06-16 16:06:54 <Subo1978_> why
193 2013-06-16 16:07:43 <BlueMatt> because then your wonderful service depends on bc.info and if it goes down you go down when its really not at all hard to use a library for this and not be entirely at the mercy of a one-man operation
194 2013-06-16 16:08:51 <destroytheintern> well, meant internet, but I suppose this works too
195 2013-06-16 16:08:52 <Subo1978> BlueMatt: ok. for business you have right. i think for "private" use bc.info is ok
196 2013-06-16 16:09:30 <shesek> I am looking for a solution for a service I'm developing, not for personal use
197 2013-06-16 16:09:37 <shesek> what libraries can do that?
198 2013-06-16 16:09:59 <BlueMatt> there are quite a few, bitcoinj is fairly mature if you're in java
199 2013-06-16 16:10:29 <BlueMatt> but if you already have a transaction and just want to broadcast it, just google "bitcoin $LANGUAGE" and you will probably find something that can do that
200 2013-06-16 16:14:06 <shesek> BlueMatt, I've actually tried to work with bitcoinjs node server, but it seems like its not quite production ready yet
201 2013-06-16 16:14:42 <shesek> I'm also looking for a solution for querying transaction history of arbitrary addresses
202 2013-06-16 16:15:00 <shesek> bitcoinj is a library, I would have to write an API layer on top of that, right?
203 2013-06-16 16:15:41 <Mad7Scientist> This is so annoying
204 2013-06-16 16:15:54 <Mad7Scientist> Bitcoin-qt starts locking up after a day and I have to restart it
205 2013-06-16 16:15:58 <Mad7Scientist> and so my miners stop
206 2013-06-16 16:16:25 <Mad7Scientist> And why does 0.8.2 always quit with Segmentation Fault
207 2013-06-16 16:16:44 <Mad7Scientist> that doesn't make me comfortable
208 2013-06-16 16:17:44 <BlueMatt> shesek: ahh, well for that you'll have to rely on a potentially-unstable 3rd party or write some code...
209 2013-06-16 16:18:02 <BlueMatt> Mad7Scientist: because shutdown is a hard problem?
210 2013-06-16 16:18:23 <BlueMatt> Mad7Scientist: but, no, it would be appreciated if you could run it in gdb and put a backtrace on a bug report
211 2013-06-16 16:21:44 <Mad7Scientist> what signal does control+C send?
212 2013-06-16 16:22:09 <BlueMatt> SIGTERM
213 2013-06-16 16:23:35 <Mad7Scientist> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
214 2013-06-16 16:23:35 <Mad7Scientist> [Switching to Thread 0x7fffd1ffb700 (LWP 18843)]
215 2013-06-16 16:23:36 <Mad7Scientist> 0x00000000005424b6 in CReserveKey::GetReservedKey(CPubKey&) ()
216 2013-06-16 16:24:15 <BlueMatt> ahh, are you running bitcoin-qt while mining without -server?
217 2013-06-16 16:24:26 <Mad7Scientist> I have -server
218 2013-06-16 16:24:31 <BlueMatt> hmm, well file a bug
219 2013-06-16 16:24:41 <Mad7Scientist> and half of the miners aren't connecting
220 2013-06-16 16:24:45 <Mad7Scientist> which is the other problem
221 2013-06-16 16:25:04 <Mad7Scientist> how can you mine without -server?
222 2013-06-16 16:26:24 <BlueMatt> you cant, well setgenerate still exists
223 2013-06-16 16:26:32 <BlueMatt> but it isnt really even useful on testnet
224 2013-06-16 16:33:54 <Mad7Scientist> how do you file bugs?
225 2013-06-16 16:37:32 <Mad7Scientist> http://www.pastebin.ca/2400488
226 2013-06-16 16:37:36 <Mad7Scientist> that's it for now
227 2013-06-16 16:37:45 <Mad7Scientist> also my miners don't all connect
228 2013-06-16 16:37:59 <Mad7Scientist> just says problems communicating with bitcoin RPC
229 2013-06-16 16:38:09 <Mad7Scientist> sometimes it connects sometimes not
230 2013-06-16 16:38:43 <BlueMatt> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
231 2013-06-16 17:08:26 <chmod755> 51358345 Jun 16 21:03 bitcoind << 51mb bitcoind? what am i doing wrong.....
232 2013-06-16 17:16:28 <BlueMatt> chmod755: strip
233 2013-06-16 17:18:53 <BlueMatt> (it happens automatically if you program w/o pants on, but if you really have to, you can just call strip bitcoind and it will lose the debug symbols and get waaay smaller)
234 2013-06-16 17:22:55 <chmod755> BlueMatt, oh i see. it's 3.5mb now
235 2013-06-16 20:17:41 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ping
236 2013-06-16 23:48:44 <Luke-Jr> ACTION ponders the idea of buying rebroad a new hard drive, just to get confirmation on that being the problem
237 2013-06-16 23:50:07 <owowo> ACTION thinks: "If Luke-Jr is buying one from BFL, it's definitely a problem."