1 2013-06-23 00:20:03 <Luke-Jr> sneak: compressing it..
  2 2013-06-23 00:22:21 <sneak> Luke-Jr: much obliged
  3 2013-06-23 00:22:31 <sneak> where do you want your bitcoin? :D
  4 2013-06-23 00:24:00 <Luke-Jr> 12aApbWeeCBMif5vdgpVT7MHXsmdwvBhoh
  5 2013-06-23 00:24:28 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/historical-seeds.txz
  6 2013-06-23 00:24:31 <Luke-Jr> 255 MB
  7 2013-06-23 00:24:38 <TheLordOfTime> Luke-Jr:  so, I learned something.  bootstrap.dat-ing a bitcoin-qt will "work" but takes about the same amount of time to load and scan the blockchain and rebuilding the index.  Whereas cloning in blocks/* and chainstate/* from an already-synced bitcoin-qt client to the unsynced bitcoin-qt takes 10 minutes to grab the chain and verify the blocks.  It's a larger data copy but it works apparently... *shrugs*
  8 2013-06-23 00:25:11 <TheLordOfTime> i assume that's normal if using a bootstrap.dat though...
  9 2013-06-23 00:25:12 <TheLordOfTime> ?
 10 2013-06-23 00:25:30 <Luke-Jr> I don't know any reason why verification would be faster
 11 2013-06-23 00:25:34 <Luke-Jr> maybe you're not really verifying it
 12 2013-06-23 00:25:46 <TheLordOfTime> 
ACTION shrugs

 13 2013-06-23 00:26:08 <TheLordOfTime> something made one work and the other take an age
 14 2013-06-23 00:29:45 <sneak> Luke-Jr: sent, much obliged
 15 2013-06-23 00:31:20 <PrimeStunna> anyone great at PHP and looking for some paid work?
 16 2013-06-23 00:31:33 <sneak> ok gotta run
 17 2013-06-23 00:31:35 <sneak> ttyl guys
 18 2013-06-23 00:31:47 <PrimeStunna> cya
 19 2013-06-23 00:32:09 <Luke-Jr> TheLordOfTime: just because it works does NOT mean it was verified
 20 2013-06-23 00:32:14 <RoboTedd_> PrimeStunna: this might not be the right channel to find freelancers, unless you want to pay people to work on bitcoin clients or something
 21 2013-06-23 00:32:25 <Luke-Jr> PrimeStunna: try #bitcoin-tech
 22 2013-06-23 00:32:32 <PrimeStunna> ah, will do thank you.
 23 2013-06-23 00:40:29 <TheLordOfTime> Luke-Jr:  true.
 24 2013-06-23 00:40:58 <TheLordOfTime> i'm going to do further testing later though
 25 2013-06-23 00:41:38 <TheLordOfTime> (at first glance though the newly loaded bitcoin-qt client went through saying "Verifying blocks..." in the splash screen after the copy, and 10 minutes later it loaded and was about synced up (minus 10 blocks))
 26 2013-06-23 00:41:46 <TheLordOfTime> (but further testing is, indeed, needed later)
 27 2013-06-23 00:42:15 <Luke-Jr> TheLordOfTime: by default, it only checks the last 144 blocks
 28 2013-06-23 00:42:50 <gmaxwell> The leveldb databases are also not especially portable between systems
 29 2013-06-23 00:43:08 <gmaxwell> IIRC x86_64 linux, arm linux, x86 linux, and windows at least are all mutually incompatible..
 30 2013-06-23 00:44:00 <gmaxwell> and as luke says, it only tests the most recent blocks. (the chainstate isn't even tested back the 144 blocks??? the amount depends on how much db cache you've configured)
 31 2013-06-23 00:55:07 <TheLordOfTime> gmaxwell:  i exclusively x86_64 linux
 32 2013-06-23 00:55:15 <TheLordOfTime> exclusively use*
 33 2013-06-23 00:55:58 <TheLordOfTime> but you're right, there's no guarantee everything is "valid"
 34 2013-06-23 00:56:59 <nanotube> how fast does bootstrap.dat verify from an ssd or ramdisk?
 35 2013-06-23 01:05:57 <gmaxwell> nanotube: I think it only takes my laptop 20 minutes or so to load bootstrap.dat, or something vaguely like that??? but that doesn't take you all the way to current
 36 2013-06-23 01:06:38 <nanotube> ah, how far back does bootstrap stop?
 37 2013-06-23 01:09:01 <gmaxwell> wherever it was last updated.
 38 2013-06-23 01:15:31 <TheLordOfTime> which was a while ago
 39 2013-06-23 01:15:45 <TheLordOfTime> like, a few weeks ago
 40 2013-06-23 02:40:32 <fanquake> Has anyone every experience a wallet uncorrupting itself, by itself? I opened Qt last night and was told to rebuild the db, but chose to abort and do it today instead. However opening the wallet today has resulted in no corruption message, and its just syncing as usual.
 41 2013-06-23 02:42:12 <fanquake> I've checked the debug log, and on both the corrupted startup, and this startup, its starting from the same block height
 42 2013-06-23 04:55:28 <ShapeShifter499> hi
 43 2013-06-23 06:06:10 <sipa> fanquake: did it tell you reindex?
 44 2013-06-23 06:06:24 <sipa> fanquake: or what was the exact message?
 45 2013-06-23 06:07:25 <sipa> fanquake: if it complains about that, i think it's the chainstate db, not the wallet
 46 2013-06-23 06:08:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: bootstrap was recently updated; 20 minutes now sounds fast
 47 2013-06-23 06:09:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: wait, you have evidence the databases are incompatible between platforms? i knew about arm, but always assumed that was due to a bug
 48 2013-06-23 06:10:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: the file format is specified to the binary level, so i don't see how that could happen
 49 2013-06-23 07:10:06 <fanquake> sips yes sorry, talking about the chainstate db
 50 2013-06-23 07:10:10 <fanquake> *sipa
 51 2013-06-23 07:12:36 <sipa> fanquake: most corruptions related to the chainstate have been unexplainable... one expmanation is hardware errors (bitflips, faulty disks) but that can't explain everything
 52 2013-06-23 07:14:13 <fanquake> sipa hmm ok. Have you ever had a corrupted db somehow be uncorrupted on the next startup though? That seems kinda strange.
 53 2013-06-23 07:14:56 <sipa> fanquake: i have ever *had* a corrupted db in the first place
 54 2013-06-23 07:15:01 <sipa> but people report them
 55 2013-06-23 07:15:07 <fanquake> sipa: posted a debug log here btw, incase it offer any insight
 56 2013-06-23 07:16:33 <sipa> yes, i saw it
 57 2013-06-23 07:16:44 <sipa> seems like a leveldb error that went awau
 58 2013-06-23 07:17:01 <sipa> which seems verybstrange indeed
 59 2013-06-23 07:17:06 <sipa> what os/hardware?
 60 2013-06-23 07:18:49 <fanquake> OSX 10.8 3.4ghz, 16GB ram, 120GB SSD and a 3TB HDD
 61 2013-06-23 07:18:55 <fanquake> *10.8.4
 62 2013-06-23 07:21:27 <sipa> i don't understand how that can happen either... if an error is found during startup (like here), nothing should be written at all (except a merge of the previous log, maybe)... so i don't get how the state can change
 63 2013-06-23 07:22:17 <fanquake> Yes, thats why I'm confused. I certainly didn't change anything in the bitcoin data dir between the two startups.
 64 2013-06-23 07:31:39 <phantomcircuit> fanquake, i wouldn't trust the db after an error
 65 2013-06-23 07:31:54 <[\\\\\\]> I've gotten the corruption message several times
 66 2013-06-23 07:31:56 <phantomcircuit> sipa, does leveldb have any checksums?
 67 2013-06-23 07:31:57 <[\\\\\\]> it sucks
 68 2013-06-23 07:32:04 <[\\\\\\]> on a new ssd
 69 2013-06-23 07:32:15 <phantomcircuit> i suspect it's crc32 or equivalent
 70 2013-06-23 07:32:31 <[\\\\\\]> I always cleanly shutdown
 71 2013-06-23 07:32:34 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 72 2013-06-23 07:32:36 <phantomcircuit> it is a crc32
 73 2013-06-23 07:32:53 <phantomcircuit> and only for the log
 74 2013-06-23 07:32:56 <phantomcircuit> not the tables
 75 2013-06-23 07:33:13 <phantomcircuit> fanquake, i would strongly advice that you run -reindex
 76 2013-06-23 07:33:24 <phantomcircuit> [\\\\\\], ditto to you
 77 2013-06-23 07:33:31 <[\\\\\\]> I did one further
 78 2013-06-23 07:33:38 <[\\\\\\]> I purged and bootstrap.dat'd
 79 2013-06-23 07:35:14 <fanquake> phantomcircuit Yeah I will do
 80 2013-06-23 07:35:30 <phantomcircuit> [\\\\\\], it *should* be the same thing
 81 2013-06-23 07:35:35 <phantomcircuit> (and i think actually is)
 82 2013-06-23 07:35:54 <[\\\\\\]> perhaps
 83 2013-06-23 07:36:08 <[\\\\\\]> but it certainly didn't hurt to do it this way
 84 2013-06-23 07:36:17 <phantomcircuit> true
 85 2013-06-23 07:36:24 <phantomcircuit> and it should take just as long either way
 86 2013-06-23 07:36:28 <[\\\\\\]> aye
 87 2013-06-23 07:36:30 <[\\\\\\]> it starts from 0
 88 2013-06-23 07:36:41 <[\\\\\\]> so whether it uses your existing blocks or the bootstrap blocks
 89 2013-06-23 07:36:46 <[\\\\\\]> same thing
 90 2013-06-23 07:37:12 <[\\\\\\]> I used bootstrap because I knew the status of that
 91 2013-06-23 07:37:19 <[\\\\\\]> since I leave the torrent running
 92 2013-06-23 07:38:07 <Shockzz_> Any advice for starting an alt-coin?
 93 2013-06-23 07:38:13 <[\\\\\\]> yep
 94 2013-06-23 07:38:14 <[\\\\\\]> don't
 95 2013-06-23 07:38:15 <[\\\\\\]> :-x
 96 2013-06-23 07:38:21 <Shockzz_> :
 97 2013-06-23 07:38:23 <Shockzz_> :/ *
 98 2013-06-23 07:38:41 <[\\\\\\]> forking, changing a few variables and then conpiling isn't much of an alt
 99 2013-06-23 07:39:00 <[\\\\\\]> if you're going to make an alt, spend some time and consider what you think is currently lacking and how you'd improve upon it
100 2013-06-23 07:39:08 <[\\\\\\]> go from there
101 2013-06-23 08:05:11 <warren> Shockzz_: alternatively, have a strong marketing team to make up for the lack of any technical merit.
102 2013-06-23 08:05:21 <warren> 
ACTION facepalm.

103 2013-06-23 08:18:08 <Mr_Cloud> Hello everyone
104 2013-06-23 08:18:31 <fanquake> phantomcircuit, would running with -checkblock=0 -checklevel=4 be suffice to check the chainstate? I've completed that just now. Whats the difference between that and a reindex?
105 2013-06-23 08:24:58 <Mr_Cloud> What the hell
106 2013-06-23 08:25:14 <Mr_Cloud> I'm trying to install jsonrpc for Python from json-rpc.org
107 2013-06-23 08:25:28 <Mr_Cloud> And their folders which allegedly hold the files are empty!
108 2013-06-23 08:25:50 <Mr_Cloud> Download the source using bazaar.
109 2013-06-23 08:25:51 <Mr_Cloud> $ bzr checkout http://bzr.json-rpc.org/trunk
110 2013-06-23 08:26:06 <Mr_Cloud> ^ Following the link in FF yields an empty folder. What gives?
111 2013-06-23 08:26:31 <Shockzz_> ;;
112 2013-06-23 08:26:37 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
113 2013-06-23 08:26:37 <Shockzz_> ;;help
114 2013-06-23 08:27:02 <gribble> To see a nice sortable web view of all factoids, click here: http://gribble.dreamhosters.com/viewfactoids.php?db=%23bitcoin-dev || To see a list of the most popular factoids, run !rank || To search factoids, run !factoids search <yoursearchterm>
115 2013-06-23 08:27:02 <Shockzz_> !facts
116 2013-06-23 08:33:59 <Mr_Cloud> sipa, are you there?
117 2013-06-23 09:23:12 <michagogo> Erm, guys?
118 2013-06-23 09:23:28 <michagogo> Wait, ignore me
119 2013-06-23 09:23:33 <michagogo> (wrong channel)
120 2013-06-23 09:25:08 <warren> I accidentally blew away my local git repo.  Could someone please remind me how to add that origin-pull remote again?
121 2013-06-23 09:25:51 <nanotube> git clone <url> will clone a fresh copy
122 2013-06-23 09:26:13 <nanotube> if by 'blew away my local git repo' you mean you deleted everything
123 2013-06-23 09:26:36 <warren> Yes, I blew away everything including the special remote setup that someone told me to do.
124 2013-06-23 09:26:54 <warren> It allows you to git log and cherry-pick directly from pull requests.
125 2013-06-23 09:29:22 <nanotube> well to add remotes you do 'git remote add <url>' ... not sure what your 'special setup' was though.
126 2013-06-23 09:30:45 <warren> I think it was Luke-Jr and sipa that told me about "origin-pull", an undocumented feature of github.
127 2013-06-23 09:31:22 <nanotube> ah heh never used that one
128 2013-06-23 09:31:33 <warren> It's pretty awesome, especially with bash-completion
129 2013-06-23 09:31:51 <warren> git log origin-pull/<TAB> shows you available pull req numbers
130 2013-06-23 09:32:53 <warren> git log origin-pull/<number>/merge to see commits in the pull request.  You can cherry-pick stuff from there without adding more remotes.
131 2013-06-23 09:44:11 <nanotube> cool
132 2013-06-23 09:44:27 <warren> Figured it out.
133 2013-06-23 09:44:29 <warren> [remote "origin-pull"]
134 2013-06-23 09:44:30 <warren> fetch = +refs/pull/*:refs/remotes/origin-pull/*
135 2013-06-23 09:44:30 <warren> url = git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
136 2013-06-23 09:48:38 <nanotube> nice
137 2013-06-23 10:04:03 <rabiescat99> Hello. This is what I get when I try to run the bitcoind binary (FreeBSD): http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=6bEyMfFL
138 2013-06-23 10:04:09 <rabiescat99> Any idea what the hell is going on? I'm trying to set up Bitcoin (not for mining) on my server so I can make my store deal with Bitcoin. Without using a third party service.
139 2013-06-23 10:04:18 <rabiescat99> "/root/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf" does not exist, BTW. Also, why /root/? All the other configs are in /usr/local/etc/ or whatever.
140 2013-06-23 10:06:17 <michagogo> rabiescat99: Is /root/.bitcoin your datadir?
141 2013-06-23 10:06:33 <michagogo> Also, is this the first time you're running bitcoind? Do you have the files anywhere?
142 2013-06-23 10:06:35 <rabiescat99> Datadir for what?
143 2013-06-23 10:06:41 <rabiescat99> First time, yes.
144 2013-06-23 10:06:45 <michagogo> (blockchain, wallet, etc.)
145 2013-06-23 10:07:06 <rabiescat99> The only bitcoin.conf in existence on my system is in /usr/ports/net-p2p/bitcoin/work/bitcoin-bitcoin-94933c3/contrib/debian/examples/bitcoin.conf
146 2013-06-23 10:07:21 <michagogo> Basically, bitcoin needs to store a bunch of files, including wallet, blockchain, configuration files.
147 2013-06-23 10:07:51 <michagogo> It stores that in its data directory, which by default appears to be /root/bitcoin
148 2013-06-23 10:07:54 <rabiescat99> Yes, I know. I mean it's the first time I run Bitcoin on FreeBSD. I have run it on Windows (GUI) for a long time.
149 2013-06-23 10:08:07 <rabiescat99> Well...
150 2013-06-23 10:08:19 <rabiescat99> I have no idea what controls that dir. It should be the config. Which doesn't exist.
151 2013-06-23 10:08:25 <michagogo> rabiescat99: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory
152 2013-06-23 10:08:27 <rabiescat99> And which should be in /usr/local/etc like everything else.
153 2013-06-23 10:09:03 <michagogo> rabiescat99: start bitcoind with -datadir=/usr/local/etc/bitcoin
154 2013-06-23 10:09:10 <michagogo> or .bitcoin, if you prefer
155 2013-06-23 10:09:34 <michagogo> (and, take a look at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin as well)
156 2013-06-23 10:10:39 <rabiescat99> So I'm supposed to copy that example .conf to the correct dir and edit it?
157 2013-06-23 10:10:52 <rabiescat99> Nearly all of the directives seem to revolve around "RPC". This I found very odd as well.
158 2013-06-23 10:12:46 <sipa> fanquake: the startup check is essentially doing a roll back of the database in memory (as much as fits in memory), and then retrying to connect blocks (at level 4), though that's typically only 50-100 blocks or so
159 2013-06-23 10:13:26 <sipa> rabiescat99: it uses your homedir, if you're running as root, it will store stuff in /root/.bitcoin...
160 2013-06-23 10:13:37 <michagogo> rabiescat99: If you're running bitcoind, any interaction you have with it is through RPV
161 2013-06-23 10:13:39 <michagogo> RPC*
162 2013-06-23 10:14:19 <rabiescat99> Well, I couldn't find any "start script" for it.
163 2013-06-23 10:14:27 <rabiescat99> Which all software usually have in FreeBSD ports.
164 2013-06-23 10:14:48 <rabiescat99> For example, Tor would be started with "/usr/local/etc/rc.d/tor start".
165 2013-06-23 10:14:49 <sipa> well then complain to who is maintaining the freebsd port :)
166 2013-06-23 10:15:15 <rabiescat99> Sigh. I never imagined that a crappy port would prevent me from using Bitcoin like this.
167 2013-06-23 10:15:24 <sipa> and it typically doean't run as a system-wide service, but just as your user
168 2013-06-23 10:15:27 <sipa> prevent?
169 2013-06-23 10:15:46 <rabiescat99> Well, I have no idea how to start it, where it really should have its config, etc.
170 2013-06-23 10:15:52 <sipa> you only need a config file with rpcpassword=password rpcuser=username it
171 2013-06-23 10:16:08 <sipa> in $HOME/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
172 2013-06-23 10:16:18 <sipa> it should tell you that at startup, i think
173 2013-06-23 10:16:57 <rabiescat99> This breaks everything established on FreeBSD... I have no idea how I'd start it properly except for a one-time test. Hrm.
174 2013-06-23 10:17:17 <rabiescat99> Seems like it didn't make a user for itself, either.
175 2013-06-23 10:17:31 <sipa> you typically run it yourself
176 2013-06-23 10:17:34 <michagogo> rabiescat99: You can start it with the -config flag
177 2013-06-23 10:17:40 <michagogo> erm
178 2013-06-23 10:17:45 <michagogo> -datadir flag
179 2013-06-23 10:17:54 <sipa> it's typically not a system-wide daemon
180 2013-06-23 10:18:03 <sipa> as it handles someone's money...
181 2013-06-23 10:18:23 <sipa> it's less conventional indeed
182 2013-06-23 10:18:26 <michagogo> rabiescat99: If you want it in /usr/local/etc, `./bitcoind  -datadir=/usr/local/etc/.bitcoin`
183 2013-06-23 10:18:59 <rabiescat99> Well, with no rc.d script or something, it won't start when I start the server, and will exit once I leave the terminal.
184 2013-06-23 10:19:18 <rabiescat99> Sorry for sounding "lame", but even if I knew how to write such a script, it would feel non-standard.
185 2013-06-23 10:19:56 <sipa> that imdeed makes sense for something that runs as a system-wide daemon, which is likely what you want when running it on a server
186 2013-06-23 10:20:06 <sipa> but that's something for the packager
187 2013-06-23 10:20:12 <rabiescat99> Yeah. :(
188 2013-06-23 10:20:16 <rabiescat99> Some ports are quite awful.
189 2013-06-23 10:20:37 <rabiescat99> But they seem to be too happy that anyone did it at all to complain.
190 2013-06-23 11:47:42 <TheXev> testing?
191 2013-06-23 11:48:59 <SomeoneWeird> test failed
192 2013-06-23 11:49:38 <TheXev> worked for me, but my buddy bloke couldn't get messages to post in here.  He's rejoining.
193 2013-06-23 11:49:50 <sipa> you need to be registered to talk here now
194 2013-06-23 11:49:55 <sipa> sorry, anti-spam measure
195 2013-06-23 11:50:00 <TheXev> oh
196 2013-06-23 11:50:04 <TheXev> (i was thinking he was registered)
197 2013-06-23 11:50:19 <TheXev> bloke, you need to be a registered user to talk in here.
198 2013-06-23 11:52:15 <TheXev> sipa: thx, we'll get him registered then.
199 2013-06-23 12:09:20 <Mr_Cloud> sipa, do you have json-rpc for Python installed?
200 2013-06-23 12:09:35 <sipa> no
201 2013-06-23 12:09:45 <Mr_Cloud> Tits.
202 2013-06-23 12:09:58 <Mr_Cloud> Where's jgarzik when you need him
203 2013-06-23 12:10:55 <Mr_Cloud> I has a "herp derp can't find ServiceProxy" error when trying to use his bitcoinrpc
204 2013-06-23 12:22:09 <bitanarchy> can your run bitcoin-qt on tails? I get the following error: sendto: operation not permitted, while loading the blockchain
205 2013-06-23 12:23:02 <sipa> 'tails' ?
206 2013-06-23 12:24:13 <bitanarchy> that is a tor live cd
207 2013-06-23 12:24:15 <bitanarchy> or usb
208 2013-06-23 12:24:31 <bitanarchy> ofcourse i run the blockchain from the hd
209 2013-06-23 12:26:02 <gribble> (gentime <hashrate> [<difficulty>]) -- Calculate expected time to generate a block using <hashrate> Mhps, at current difficulty. If optional <difficulty> argument is provided, expected generation time is for supplied difficulty.
210 2013-06-23 12:26:02 <Shockzz_> ;;gentime 1048576 * 30
211 2013-06-23 12:26:37 <Shockzz_> ;;gentime 31457280
212 2013-06-23 12:26:38 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 31457280.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 19339258.2724, is 44 minutes and 0 seconds
213 2013-06-23 12:28:37 <sipa> bitanarchy: perhaps selinux protection?
214 2013-06-23 12:28:59 <bitanarchy> what is this sendto operation doing?
215 2013-06-23 12:29:10 <sipa> sending data
216 2013-06-23 12:29:20 <sipa> to a peer
217 2013-06-23 12:29:32 <Shockzz_> Is there not a way of running Gribble queries without spamming the IRC for everybody else/
218 2013-06-23 12:29:32 <sipa> rather essential for a network application :)
219 2013-06-23 12:29:38 <sipa> Shockzz_: yes, do it in pm
220 2013-06-23 12:29:59 <bitanarchy> sipa: ah ok, my client kind find any peers
221 2013-06-23 12:30:20 <sipa> understandably, if all outgoing messages are blocked!
222 2013-06-23 12:31:03 <bitanarchy> can??t
223 2013-06-23 12:31:14 <sipa> ?
224 2013-06-23 12:41:12 <bloke> testing
225 2013-06-23 12:41:22 <TheXev> u can talks. XD
226 2013-06-23 12:41:24 <bloke> What's the best way to get the value of a transaction, using btcoind?  On testnet, I'm using "getrawtransaction" at the moment, but for some blocks it gives me: error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
227 2013-06-23 12:41:41 <sipa> you cannot know the value of a transaction, only of individual outputs
228 2013-06-23 12:41:48 <bloke> right
229 2013-06-23 12:41:57 <sipa> and you need to enable txindex=1 in bitcoin.conf before getrawtransaction will work for arbitrary transactions
230 2013-06-23 12:42:05 <sipa> by default, no transaction index is maintained
231 2013-06-23 12:42:10 <bloke> ok i see
232 2013-06-23 12:42:33 <bloke> My goal is to find the "block reward" for each block. Am I going about it in the right way?
233 2013-06-23 12:42:36 <sipa> and you'll need to rebuild the database from scratch (start with -reindex once)
234 2013-06-23 12:42:41 <bloke> right, ok
235 2013-06-23 12:43:17 <sipa> you mean subsidy, or subsidy+fees, or coinbase outputs?
236 2013-06-23 12:43:28 <sipa> (they can all 3 be different!)
237 2013-06-23 12:43:33 <bloke> yikes
238 2013-06-23 12:43:47 <bloke> btc reward paid to the successful miner of the block
239 2013-06-23 12:43:55 <sipa> ok, outputs i guess
240 2013-06-23 12:43:57 <bloke> sorry, I still have some reading to do, apparently
241 2013-06-23 12:43:58 <sipa> those are easy
242 2013-06-23 12:44:11 <bitanarchy> sipa: tails does not automagically redirect overything over tor... you still have to torify each app... didn??t know that
243 2013-06-23 12:44:12 <sipa> look at the outputs of each blocks' coinbase transaction and sum their amounts
244 2013-06-23 12:44:21 <bloke> ok cheers. I think thats what ive been doing
245 2013-06-23 12:44:29 <bloke> thanks heaps sipa :)
246 2013-06-23 12:55:27 <Shockzz_> What do you think the total hashrate of all the miners in the world would be?
247 2013-06-23 12:56:19 <ahmed_2> hey guys
248 2013-06-23 12:56:38 <ahmed_2> is anyone here good at php
249 2013-06-23 12:56:39 <bloke> http://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate
250 2013-06-23 12:56:47 <bloke> ahmed, I'm ok at it
251 2013-06-23 12:57:15 <ahmed_2> ive got a lotto website which ive been running, and im having trouble converting it to a json api
252 2013-06-23 12:57:47 <ahmed_2> this is the main code: http://pastebin.com/MREKnUnF
253 2013-06-23 12:58:25 <Shockzz_> 170160 Gh/s isn't much...
254 2013-06-23 12:58:42 <bloke> It's all relative I guess :)
255 2013-06-23 12:59:37 <Shockzz_> I was just wondering, because I did some math with gribble and it would take atleast 64,000 Th/s to generate a block in a second.
256 2013-06-23 13:00:52 <warren> dang ... how do I get an importable privkey from pywallet
257 2013-06-23 13:01:44 <ahmed_2> anyone
258 2013-06-23 13:08:37 <_ingsoc> Is anyone interested in paid dev work?
259 2013-06-23 13:09:23 <Shockzz_> Depends what kind of work it is.
260 2013-06-23 13:10:12 <_ingsoc> Experience with the Bitcoin codebase is pretty much critical.
261 2013-06-23 13:11:28 <_ingsoc> It pays really well if that helps!
262 2013-06-23 13:11:43 <Shockzz_> Sorry but no thanks :p
263 2013-06-23 13:12:27 <gribble> 164459.827104
264 2013-06-23 13:12:27 <sipa> ;;nethash
265 2013-06-23 13:13:45 <michagogo> [17:40:40] <sipa> (they can all 3 be different!)
266 2013-06-23 13:13:45 <michagogo> Erm, why would subsidy+fees not equal coinbase outputs? o_O
267 2013-06-23 13:14:17 <michagogo> _ingsoc: It
268 2013-06-23 13:14:24 <michagogo> _ingsoc: It'd help if you explained more
269 2013-06-23 13:14:53 <_ingsoc> I'm kind of dipping my toes in the water to see if it's hostile. Since I pretty much just posted an ad in your chat. :/
270 2013-06-23 13:15:04 <_ingsoc> I've got a whitepaper if you're interested.
271 2013-06-23 13:16:48 <michagogo> _ingsoc: What exactly are you looking to do?
272 2013-06-23 13:17:34 <_ingsoc> Do you mind if I PM you so I don't pollute chat?
273 2013-06-23 13:37:34 <grau> michagogo: coinbase output can be less than reward+fees. Would be dumb, but allowed
274 2013-06-23 13:37:46 <michagogo> o_O
275 2013-06-23 13:38:40 <sipa> and it has happened that not everything was claimed
276 2013-06-23 13:45:51 <jgarzik> random,
277 2013-06-23 13:46:18 <jgarzik> sipa, warren, I occasionally wonder whether importing a key with $CurTime as key birthday is the best
278 2013-06-23 13:46:29 <jgarzik> creating a key, sure, that's fine
279 2013-06-23 13:46:33 <jgarzik> importing is another matter
280 2013-06-23 13:47:32 <jgarzik> sipa, I think you wanted 'importprivkey' to take privkey@timestamp format?
281 2013-06-23 13:47:54 <sipa> jgarzik: importing? if no birthtime is specified whwn importing, it should be considered infinitely old
282 2013-06-23 13:47:59 <sipa> jgarzik: yeah
283 2013-06-23 13:48:18 <warren> jgarzik: I don't see how $CurTime makes sense if the user doesn't know the birthday
284 2013-06-23 13:48:19 <sipa> or bwtter, have no timestamp at all
285 2013-06-23 13:48:33 <jgarzik> sipa, nod, noting that I think HEAD is buggy in that way
286 2013-06-23 13:48:45 <sipa> jgarzik: i doubt that
287 2013-06-23 13:49:00 <sipa> jgarzik: i removed all GetTime() calls related to keys
288 2013-06-23 13:49:07 <sipa> except the one in GenerateNewKey
289 2013-06-23 13:49:19 <jgarzik> ok
290 2013-06-23 13:49:46 <sipa> and my walletdump patch (not yet merged) has to code automatically infer safe lower bounds on key ages
291 2013-06-23 13:49:56 <sipa> based on transactions crediting them
292 2013-06-23 13:52:58 <iddo> maybe coinbase<reward+fees is the only way to provably destroy bitcoins?
293 2013-06-23 13:53:40 <iddo> i saw http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/7443 about sending bitcoins to script that always returns false, though maybe you can find a 2nd preimage to the script hash?
294 2013-06-23 13:54:04 <sipa> iddo: that only works for p2sh outputs
295 2013-06-23 13:54:46 <sipa> but if preimages become viavle, we'll have other prblems i guess
296 2013-06-23 13:54:50 <iddo> yes if someone wishes to prove that he destoryed his coins, he can send to p2sh output that always returns false
297 2013-06-23 13:55:14 <sipa> why p2sh? just send to an OP_FALSE script?
298 2013-06-23 13:55:18 <iddo> i just wonder if coinbase<reward+fees is the only totally provable way
299 2013-06-23 13:56:13 <iddo> ok but in either case the transaction output is script hash, so there can be 2nd preimage?
300 2013-06-23 13:58:13 <jgarzik> OK, _this_ is nutters: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/23/bitcoin-foundation-receives-cease-and-desist-order-from-california/
301 2013-06-23 13:58:31 <jgarzik> IIUC, California is imagining that BF "runs bitcoin"
302 2013-06-23 13:59:01 <sipa> iddo: no, the output contains the script itself
303 2013-06-23 13:59:27 <sipa> p2sh = pay to script hash = output co tains script hash i stead of script itself
304 2013-06-23 13:59:44 <sipa> jgarzik: that's.... ridiculous
305 2013-06-23 14:00:01 <iddo> ahh, cool
306 2013-06-23 14:00:11 <jgarzik> sipa, pretty much
307 2013-06-23 14:01:28 <shesek> why not use 0x00 as the pubkey?
308 2013-06-23 14:01:42 <sipa> hah, that's possible too
309 2013-06-23 14:01:49 <shesek> which is 1111111111111111111114oLvT2
310 2013-06-23 14:01:56 <sipa> no no
311 2013-06-23 14:02:05 <sipa> that's a send to pubkeyhash
312 2013-06-23 14:02:14 <sipa> with hash=o
313 2013-06-23 14:02:23 <sipa> that's still vulnerable to a preimage
314 2013-06-23 14:02:40 <sipa> but you could just send to an _invalid_ pubkey directly
315 2013-06-23 14:03:00 <sipa> but OP_FALSE is still smaller
316 2013-06-23 14:03:42 <michagogo> [18:52:26] <sipa> why p2sh? just send to an OP_FALSE script?
317 2013-06-23 14:03:51 <michagogo> I thought OP_RETURN is the "fail" code?
318 2013-06-23 14:05:28 <michagogo> From that forbes article: "The issued letter was signed by State of California Senior Counsel Paul T. Crayton"
319 2013-06-23 14:05:36 <michagogo> 
ACTION read that as Crayon

320 2013-06-23 14:06:13 <shesek> sipa, are you sure? that's what I'm getting from bitcoinjs with `new Bitcoin.Address(0 for [1..20]).toString()`
321 2013-06-23 14:06:28 <shesek> oh oops
322 2013-06-23 14:06:31 <shesek> I misread what you said
323 2013-06-23 14:06:53 <shesek> (thought you said it was a pay to non-hash pubkey)
324 2013-06-23 14:07:39 <shesek> how is this vulnerable to preimage? one would have to find a pubkey that hashes to all zeros, than find a private key for that
325 2013-06-23 14:07:44 <shesek> which is practically impossible
326 2013-06-23 14:09:56 <sipa> shesek: nobody claimed a preumage is practically possible
327 2013-06-23 14:10:06 <sipa> but it's still vulnerable to that
328 2013-06-23 14:10:14 <shesek> its not just an preimage attack, you'd still have to find a matching private key
329 2013-06-23 14:10:22 <MC1984> foundation is a double edged sword in terms of having an edifice with which other edifices can interact
330 2013-06-23 14:10:26 <shesek> if someone can find a private key for arbitrary pubkeys, we have worse issues than that
331 2013-06-23 14:10:29 <MC1984> california lol
332 2013-06-23 14:10:38 <sipa> shesek: sure, it'd be horrible
333 2013-06-23 14:10:58 <sipa> shesek: but sending to an invalid pubkey or OP_FALSE doesn't even suffer from that
334 2013-06-23 14:11:16 <sipa> there's no practical difference, only a theoretical one
335 2013-06-23 14:14:00 <michagogo> sipa: What's the difference between sending to OP_FALSE vs OP_RETURN?
336 2013-06-23 14:14:20 <sipa> it's a different operation, but it has the same result
337 2013-06-23 14:14:35 <michagogo> Different how?
338 2013-06-23 14:14:49 <sipa> op_false pushes false on the stack
339 2013-06-23 14:15:01 <sipa> op_return causes the script to fail immediately
340 2013-06-23 14:15:45 <Vinnie_win> phew...we have to fix HEAD because the pull tester keeps failing
341 2013-06-23 14:15:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: likely a result of Aaron Greenspan's saber rattling. He's accusing california of discriminatory enforcement and cite bitcoin in his nuisance lawsuit.
342 2013-06-23 14:16:27 <shesek> sipa, if one could easily find hash collisions, he can still find a collision with the p2sh address to a different script that lets him redeem it
343 2013-06-23 14:17:11 <shesek> so OP_FALSE/OP_RETURN (with p2sh) is still vulnerable to an pre-image attack, without having to find a matching private key
344 2013-06-23 14:18:45 <gmaxwell> who said anything about p2sh?  The proposed standard unspendable output is a very specific script.
345 2013-06-23 14:20:43 <sipa> shesek: OP_RETURN provably unspendable outputs wouldn't be P2SH
346 2013-06-23 14:20:56 <sipa> though not because of danger of preimage
347 2013-06-23 14:21:48 <warren> hmm, I might as well ask you folks.  I was planning on dropping our free KB per block from 27KB to 10KB (given our blocks are 4x more often).  Can you foresee anything bad happening, given 10KB is also the free tx size limit?
348 2013-06-23 14:22:01 <gmaxwell> (because its the shortest such script, and because it's trivial to get the matching right)
349 2013-06-23 14:25:24 <michagogo> warren: 4x?
350 2013-06-23 14:26:31 <warren> michagogo: I'm fixing Litecoin's problem of "no releases for a year".  Rebased onto modern bitcoin, putting it through every test I can find, adjusting things that seem like a good idea.
351 2013-06-23 14:27:07 <michagogo> Hmm? What does "4x" have to do with that?
352 2013-06-23 14:27:52 <warren> michagogo: oh, 2.5 minute blocks.  So 27KB high priority tx per block would be 108KB per 10 minutes
353 2013-06-23 14:27:58 <warren> michagogo: which seems excessive
354 2013-06-23 14:29:17 <michagogo> Ah
355 2013-06-23 14:29:38 <michagogo> BTW, how is that supposed to help?
356 2013-06-23 14:29:58 <warren> "that" meaning reducing the free tx per block?
357 2013-06-23 14:30:06 <michagogo> No, blocks every 150 secs
358 2013-06-23 14:30:22 <michagogo> Considering that the reliability of confirmations has nothing to do with number, but rather time
359 2013-06-23 14:30:50 <warren> michagogo: I didn't design this.   I'm not even claiming any of this is good.  I'm just fixing it and learning stuff.
360 2013-06-23 14:30:51 <michagogo> For the same level of reliability that you get in 6 blocks, you now need to wait 24 blocks
361 2013-06-23 14:32:31 <Mr_Cloud> Hello jgarzik
362 2013-06-23 14:33:43 <Mr_Cloud> I'm trying to get your Python bitcoinrpc code working, jgarzik
363 2013-06-23 14:34:11 <sipa> jgarzik: hmm, "or any network of people who engage as a business in facilitating the transfer of money domestically or internationally outside of the conventional financial institutions system"
364 2013-06-23 14:34:20 <sipa> jgarzik: sounds like that could apply to the foundation
365 2013-06-23 14:34:26 <sipa> if interpreted very broadly
366 2013-06-23 14:34:37 <Mr_Cloud> I got Python 3.3.2 and I downloaded the jsonrpc code and setup.py install'd it
367 2013-06-23 14:34:46 <Mr_Cloud> As well as the bitcoinrpc
368 2013-06-23 14:35:22 <Mr_Cloud> I made a query.py with the example code on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29
369 2013-06-23 14:36:00 <Mr_Cloud> Only I get the error "cannot import name ServiceProxy"
370 2013-06-23 14:36:15 <Mr_Cloud> Would you happen to know what might be causing this?
371 2013-06-23 14:40:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: sounds like it's intending to refer to hawala, would be sort of insane to apply it to 'hawala marketing association' or what have you. In any case, it still wouldnt??? because bitcoin isn't money. Perhaps a bitcoin exchange foundation would be another question. :)
372 2013-06-23 14:44:45 <Mr_Cloud> PS- dead link on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5314.0 - 404 from yyz.us for the autoproxy link
373 2013-06-23 14:46:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's why it'd be a very broad interpretation... even if bitcoin isn't money, you could argue that the purpose of the bitcoin foundation is facilitating transfer of money
374 2013-06-23 14:46:20 <sipa> (by introducing a more convenient exchange medium in between...)
375 2013-06-23 14:47:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: Fair enough, though... I'm pretty sure you could argue thats the purpose of just about everything if you're willing to go that far.
376 2013-06-23 14:48:42 <freewil> the government can try to put pressure on the bitcoin foundation, but assuming they have resources to defend themselves, i think the state would have a hard time proving they are engaging in money tranmission
377 2013-06-23 14:48:55 <freewil> what do they do other than engage in freedom of speech?
378 2013-06-23 14:54:53 <freewil> you could say it's a trade organization that publishes information, software source code
379 2013-06-23 14:56:22 <sipa> as long as you don't start calling it The Trade Federation
380 2013-06-23 15:00:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, RE Aaron, oh yeah, had forgotten about that :(
381 2013-06-23 15:00:33 <jgarzik> sipa, indeed, the statutes are obviously over-broad.
382 2013-06-23 15:00:45 <jgarzik> I would think this is EFF territory
383 2013-06-23 15:02:01 <jgarzik> Mr_Cloud, sorry, way too busy to provide free support of any sort
384 2013-06-23 15:02:06 <jgarzik> Mr_Cloud, ask in public, not in private
385 2013-06-23 15:02:16 <Mr_Cloud> Ok sure
386 2013-06-23 15:02:36 <Mr_Cloud> I'm having an issue communicating with the client.
387 2013-06-23 15:03:21 <Mr_Cloud> Currently running in -server mode and this is the error I get when running code from the example at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5314.0 - error is pastebin'd: http://pastebin.com/rqkF9DMg
388 2013-06-23 15:03:34 <Mr_Cloud> If someone could halp, I would greatly appreciate it
389 2013-06-23 15:05:50 <Mr_Cloud> And like I said jgarzik, if you could have a look at the paste whenever you can, I'd appreciate it quite a lot
390 2013-06-23 15:16:33 <Ferroh> When did bitcoin-qt start showing 8 decimals?
391 2013-06-23 15:16:35 <Ferroh> around 0.4?
392 2013-06-23 15:18:15 <gmaxwell> 0.3.20 I think. Why ask here, you can search the commit history yourself. :)
393 2013-06-23 15:19:23 <Ferroh> I did try that first without much success, its a big history :)
394 2013-06-23 15:31:14 <jgarzik> heh.  reddit "[California] must have mistake B.F. for that Ripple company"
395 2013-06-23 15:36:35 <saivann> I'd like to request review for this pull request : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/209
396 2013-06-23 15:51:27 <skinnkavaj> "Generated coins must wait 120 blocks to mature before they can be spent."
397 2013-06-23 15:51:33 <skinnkavaj> Has this been changed?
398 2013-06-23 15:51:50 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: what are you quoting?
399 2013-06-23 15:52:02 <gmaxwell> (without context I can't give you a complete answer)
400 2013-06-23 15:52:06 <skinnkavaj> http://web.archive.org/web/20090131115053/http://bitcoin.org/
401 2013-06-23 15:52:06 <skinnkavaj> the original bitcoin.org website made by satoshi
402 2013-06-23 15:52:58 <skinnkavaj> highlight gmaxwell
403 2013-06-23 15:53:00 <gmaxwell> Thats still the reference client behavior. The protocol rule is 100 and always has been 100.
404 2013-06-23 15:53:56 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: So if i win the next block by mining i have to wait 100 x 10 minutes?
405 2013-06-23 15:54:04 <shesek> why is that? ("Generated coins must wait 120 blocks to mature before they can be spent.")
406 2013-06-23 15:54:46 <gmaxwell> shesek: because if the chain reorgs the generated coins will be gone forever, irreplacably.
407 2013-06-23 15:55:13 <shesek> oh, I see. yeah, that makes sense.
408 2013-06-23 15:55:17 <sipa> which would lead to huge trees of transactions being invalidated
409 2013-06-23 15:55:26 <sipa> if the outputs would already be spent
410 2013-06-23 15:55:44 <Thepok> isnt that the same with existing coins??
411 2013-06-23 15:55:47 <gmaxwell> shesek: so it means that even if I was completely honest if I paid you out of newly generated coins events beyond my control could undo that payment and leave me unable to make good on it... .. and every subisiquent transaction rippling down.
412 2013-06-23 15:56:02 <sipa> Thepok: normal coins don't get reorganized away
413 2013-06-23 15:56:06 <gmaxwell> Thepok: no, normally when a transaction falls out of the chain its just reinserted.
414 2013-06-23 15:56:14 <sipa> Thepok: they can simply move to another part in the chain
415 2013-06-23 15:56:20 <Thepok> k
416 2013-06-23 15:56:22 <gmaxwell> Thepok: so invalidation only happens if there is dis[Dhonesty.
417 2013-06-23 15:58:08 <shesek> but a 100 blocks sounds like a bit too much, no?
418 2013-06-23 15:58:22 <sipa> it very likely is overly cautious
419 2013-06-23 15:58:31 <sipa> and the 20 extra certainly is
420 2013-06-23 15:58:37 <sipa> but does it hurt?
421 2013-06-23 15:59:03 <shesek> it hurts the miners that wants to spend it
422 2013-06-23 15:59:14 <shesek> but I guess they can wait a little longer
423 2013-06-23 15:59:38 <shesek> its less than a day, not a big deal
424 2013-06-23 16:01:12 <gmaxwell> I don't think that 100 is overly cautious. It's certnatly hardly costly to have it be a fairly long time.
425 2013-06-23 16:01:24 <gmaxwell> certantly*
426 2013-06-23 16:07:35 <gmaxwell> Might be fun to benchmark using this fork: http://hyperdex.org/performance/leveldb/
427 2013-06-23 16:08:18 <jrmithdobbs> someone seriously might to call gavin or someone and tell them to at least confirm/deny the damned forbes story on bitcoindfoundation.org somewhere
428 2013-06-23 16:08:22 <gmaxwell> (though we don't have that many entries)
429 2013-06-23 16:08:35 <jrmithdobbs> err bitcoinfoundation.org
430 2013-06-23 16:08:54 <_ingsoc> He said something about it earlier.
431 2013-06-23 16:09:01 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: see the scanned letter, it looks real enough. And the author of that post would certantly know.
432 2013-06-23 16:09:53 <_ingsoc> Something about California thinking BF runs Bitcoin.
433 2013-06-23 16:13:34 <shesek> more like California thinking BF is running a money transmitter service
434 2013-06-23 16:21:05 <_ingsoc> What the heck does that even mean?
435 2013-06-23 16:21:23 <_ingsoc> How do you prove that you're not?
436 2013-06-23 16:23:36 <shesek> there's some interesting information over at HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5927892 (the top-most comment)
437 2013-06-23 16:24:10 <shesek> the law to worry about here isn't even the one cited. It is ... 18 U.S.C. ? 1960 ... And that law says that you don't have to be a money transmitter to get a letter such as the one received by the Bitcoin Foundation
438 2013-06-23 16:24:49 <_ingsoc> What about people that develop cryptocurrencies?
439 2013-06-23 16:24:56 <_ingsoc> Could they get in trouble?
440 2013-06-23 16:27:13 <shesek> IANAL, and I probably don't know more than you do
441 2013-06-23 16:27:51 <_ingsoc> Hmmm.
442 2013-06-23 16:27:58 <_ingsoc> That top comment is pretty scary.
443 2013-06-23 16:40:58 <owowo> What?! You don't have to be a "money transmitter" to get a letter telling you to "cease and desist" money transmitting?!
444 2013-06-23 16:41:42 <owowo> Must be law...
445 2013-06-23 16:41:54 <Diablo-D3> owowo: well
446 2013-06-23 16:41:58 <Diablo-D3> the letter is worthless either way
447 2013-06-23 16:42:32 <Diablo-D3> though I'd preemptively sue to get a declarative judgement against the government
448 2013-06-23 16:43:00 <owowo> then can I write a letter to California to just... cease and desist ;o)
449 2013-06-23 16:43:32 <Diablo-D3> exactly
450 2013-06-23 16:43:49 <Diablo-D3> if a judge rules that you are, indeed, not a money transmitter and have never transmitted money
451 2013-06-23 16:44:03 <Diablo-D3> then any further c&ds are harassment
452 2013-06-23 16:44:10 <Diablo-D3> which are then legally actionable
453 2013-06-23 16:45:54 <owowo> is Schwarzenegger still the gouvernator?
454 2013-06-23 16:45:59 <Diablo-D3> no
455 2013-06-23 16:46:06 <Diablo-D3> hasnt been for what, 4 years?
456 2013-06-23 16:48:24 <jgarzik> shesek, over on HN, note that ThinkComp's comment == Aaron Greenspan.  Google around on him.
457 2013-06-23 16:49:13 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: jesus, does everyone read HN now?
458 2013-06-23 16:49:35 <Arnavion> Does it count if I read it ironically?
459 2013-06-23 16:49:38 <jgarzik> I don't.  But it infects other sites.
460 2013-06-23 16:49:42 <jgarzik> It is unavoidable.
461 2013-06-23 16:49:47 <jgarzik> like 4chan
462 2013-06-23 16:49:50 <Diablo-D3> I mena, I joined HN when it wasnt popular
463 2013-06-23 16:49:52 <owowo> what's HN?
464 2013-06-23 16:49:55 <Diablo-D3> now like, everybody fucking posts
465 2013-06-23 16:49:58 <Diablo-D3> and I have a gigantic karma
466 2013-06-23 16:50:04 <Diablo-D3> owowo: hacker news, pg's site
467 2013-06-23 16:52:15 <_ingsoc> jgarzik: Do you foresee Bitcoin developers ever getting in trouble for developing Bitcoin? :/
468 2013-06-23 16:52:58 <jgarzik> My powers as a prophet are sadly limited.  It's one reason I don't like to gamble.
469 2013-06-23 16:53:31 <Diablo-D3> _ingsoc: well
470 2013-06-23 16:53:35 <Diablo-D3> seeing as foss is free speech
471 2013-06-23 16:53:40 <Diablo-D3> I can only see this as becoming hilarious
472 2013-06-23 16:54:19 <_ingsoc> Yeah, but does the law look at it like that? :(
473 2013-06-23 16:54:29 <Diablo-D3> it basically has to
474 2013-06-23 16:54:31 <Diablo-D3> go read the constitution
475 2013-06-23 16:54:35 <k9quaint> how did California government being epically stupid suddenly become news?
476 2013-06-23 16:54:42 <_ingsoc> UK, Australia, Europe?
477 2013-06-23 16:54:45 <k9quaint> don't people have the internet?
478 2013-06-23 16:55:00 <Diablo-D3> _ingsoc: no one cares about foreign nations
479 2013-06-23 16:55:04 <_ingsoc> xD
480 2013-06-23 16:55:12 <Diablo-D3> do what we did over 200 years ago, replace your government with a better one
481 2013-06-23 16:55:23 <_ingsoc> You're kidding, right?
482 2013-06-23 16:55:23 <k9quaint> all the bitcoin foundation has to say is "we will hold our tech conference in New York" and the DFI will evaporate in a puff of logic
483 2013-06-23 16:56:22 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: hah.
484 2013-06-23 16:57:48 <_ingsoc> Can't do anything nowadays without breaking the law or getting persecuted.
485 2013-06-23 16:58:47 <Diablo-D3> the average person commits 3 felonies a day
486 2013-06-23 16:58:53 <k9quaint> _ingsoc: move to somalia, they don't have that problem
487 2013-06-23 16:59:20 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: not true
488 2013-06-23 16:59:27 <Diablo-D3> if you're caught being white in somalia
489 2013-06-23 16:59:30 <Diablo-D3> they'll kill you
490 2013-06-23 16:59:35 <matjeh> somalia: land of the free
491 2013-06-23 16:59:45 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: no, they will try to kill you
492 2013-06-23 16:59:56 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: but you won't be breaking the law :P
493 2013-06-23 17:00:22 <Diablo-D3> true, I could just show up with a tank.
494 2013-06-23 17:00:45 <k9quaint> or a star destroyer
495 2013-06-23 17:01:17 <Diablo-D3> s/star/aegis/
496 2013-06-23 17:02:14 <jgarzik> The average person sees 3 incorrect, pulled-out-of-your-ass statistics per day.
497 2013-06-23 17:02:17 <k9quaint> evaporating people from orbit with turbo lasers > floating on the ocean :)
498 2013-06-23 17:02:31 <michagogo> jgarzik: Also, 73% of all statistics are made up on the spot
499 2013-06-23 17:02:32 <k9quaint> jgarzik: don't get all meta on me, i havent had my coffee yet
500 2013-06-23 17:02:45 <Diablo-D3> evaporating people from 12 miles out at sea with cruise missiles > floating in space
501 2013-06-23 17:03:14 <k9quaint> I can't believe you would pick a boat over a space ship with FTL
502 2013-06-23 17:03:26 <saivann> ..
503 2013-06-23 17:03:49 <Diablo-D3> with a boat, I can still go to shore and fuck ebony princesses (after I destroyed their villages of mud huts)
504 2013-06-23 17:04:08 <Diablo-D3> with a star destroyer, its pretty much just stormtroopers, and there are so few female stormtroopers =/
505 2013-06-23 17:04:11 <k9quaint> saivann: this is clearly related to bitcoin development, I just can't see how
506 2013-06-23 17:04:21 <saivann> :)
507 2013-06-23 17:04:38 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: well, we could always buy our own country
508 2013-06-23 17:05:14 <owowo> I think greece has some island on sale
509 2013-06-23 17:05:53 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: I would rather just conquer the Caymens or BVI
510 2013-06-23 17:06:06 <k9quaint> make BTC the national currency
511 2013-06-23 17:06:15 <Diablo-D3> bvi?
512 2013-06-23 17:06:48 <k9quaint> british virgin islands
513 2013-06-23 17:06:58 <k9quaint> its where the brits send all their virgins apparently
514 2013-06-23 17:07:04 <sipa> s/send/get/
515 2013-06-23 17:07:40 <k9quaint> there are virgins in britain? since when?
516 2013-06-23 17:08:25 <saivann> Anyone to review and comment this replacement text about pseudo-anonymity on bitcoin.org?
517 2013-06-23 17:08:25 <saivann> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/209
518 2013-06-23 17:08:35 <saivann> I think it needs to be changed since a while
519 2013-06-23 17:17:00 <sipa> jgarzik, gmaxwell, wumpus: can I have some ACKs on 2783 and 2784 (shouldn't be controversial, i think...)
520 2013-06-23 17:19:27 <sipa> 2750 also seems mergable
521 2013-06-23 17:19:40 <sipa> eh, i mean 2743
522 2013-06-23 17:20:18 <sipa> some comments on 2702 would be nice
523 2013-06-23 17:23:50 <michagogo> sipa: Is the fact that 2784 failed to build not a problem?
524 2013-06-23 17:24:18 <sipa> michagogo: everything will fail to build
525 2013-06-23 17:24:28 <sipa> until pulltester is updated to use -regtest instead of patches
526 2013-06-23 17:24:31 <michagogo> Oh, is the pull tester borked
527 2013-06-23 17:24:34 <michagogo> Ah
528 2013-06-23 17:26:04 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
529 2013-06-23 17:26:04 <sipa> ;;later tell BlueMatt could you update pulltester, now that CChainParams is merged?
530 2013-06-23 17:26:35 <gribble> Error: There is no command "later".
531 2013-06-23 17:26:35 <michagogo> ;;help later
532 2013-06-23 17:26:38 <michagogo> o_O
533 2013-06-23 17:27:02 <gribble> (later tell <nick> <text>) -- Tells <nick> <text> the next time <nick> is in seen. <nick> can contain wildcard characters, and the first matching nick will be given the note.
534 2013-06-23 17:27:02 <sipa> ;;help later tell
535 2013-06-23 17:28:38 <gribble> Error: That is an invalid IRC nick. Please check your input.
536 2013-06-23 17:28:38 <michagogo> ;;later tell * test
537 2013-06-23 17:28:47 <gribble> Error: That is an invalid IRC nick. Please check your input.
538 2013-06-23 17:28:47 <michagogo> ;;later tell *i* test
539 2013-06-23 17:29:01 <michagogo> I guess it can't actually contain wildcard characters
540 2013-06-23 17:29:20 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
541 2013-06-23 17:29:20 <sipa> ;;later tell micha* maybe
542 2013-06-23 17:57:15 <sipa> jgarzik: what about inverting the logic: if you have not received any
543 2013-06-23 17:57:25 <sipa> thing for a minute, send a ping
544 2013-06-23 17:58:52 <jgarzik> sipa, yes, that seems like far more common and normal keepalive logic
545 2013-06-23 18:06:22 <michagogo> sipa: Wait, what does it do now?
546 2013-06-23 18:07:08 <michagogo> keepalive pings should only be necessary in the absence of other traffic
547 2013-06-23 19:04:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: saw that...Ill fix it tomorrow
548 2013-06-23 19:04:55 <BlueMatt> or...maybe tuesday
549 2013-06-23 19:22:58 <BlueMatt> is the foundation even registered in california?
550 2013-06-23 19:40:20 <hpprinter100> bitcoin ATM http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/
551 2013-06-23 19:40:50 <hpprinter100> BOOST BITCOIN FUND I LLC\tADAM DRAPER?
552 2013-06-23 19:42:08 <sipa> BlueMatt: i don't think that matters
553 2013-06-23 19:42:34 <BlueMatt> yea, a state cant impose rules on something not in its jurisdiction
554 2013-06-23 19:42:50 <BlueMatt> to be fair, what it is trying to impose cant happen anyway, but...
555 2013-06-23 19:44:21 <sipa> doing business within a state falls under its jurisdoction, whether you're registered there or not
556 2013-06-23 19:44:57 <sipa> but IANAL
557 2013-06-23 19:45:35 <BlueMatt> well, I suppose the issue is they mistakenly think the foundation does any business at all
558 2013-06-23 19:46:36 <jchp> sure sounds like a mistake or misunderstanding
559 2013-06-23 19:47:16 <jchp> it also sounds like aaron greenspan whined to the state
560 2013-06-23 19:47:23 <jchp> (but that's just speculation)
561 2013-06-23 19:47:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: sure
562 2013-06-23 20:33:12 <sipa> jgarzik: modified it to a send-after-not-receiving
563 2013-06-23 20:33:28 <sipa> jgarzik: while testing, discovered that we were now dumping peers.dat every 10 (!!!) seconds
564 2013-06-23 20:41:02 <Luke-Jr> O.o
565 2013-06-23 20:41:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, wat
566 2013-06-23 20:42:26 <sipa> it used to be every 100s, but it seems a 0 was lost in the threads refactor
567 2013-06-23 20:42:41 <gmaxwell> hm. When did that start?  I'd seen some weird peers.dat behavior prior to the last release. I'm not sure why I didn't follow up on it.
568 2013-06-23 20:42:49 <gmaxwell> yea, that makes sense, darn.
569 2013-06-23 20:42:56 <sipa> so since 0.8.2
570 2013-06-23 20:43:18 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, sipa money transmitter regulations define doing business in the state very broadly, that being said im pretty sure it's just a blanket C&D that they sent to anybody they could think of
571 2013-06-23 20:43:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's really obvious too, as it logs it.
572 2013-06-23 20:43:39 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: has anyone else reported recieving one yet?
573 2013-06-23 20:43:51 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i doubt anybody else would
574 2013-06-23 20:44:06 <phantomcircuit> it's generally a bad idea to poke the regulators in the eye unless it's super obvious they're wrong
575 2013-06-23 20:45:01 <gmaxwell> I mean, if they managed to hit something random that accepts bitcoin donations.
576 2013-06-23 20:45:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im not aware of anybody else reporting it
577 2013-06-23 20:45:24 <phantomcircuit> but it reads as a very generic C&D
578 2013-06-23 20:45:32 <davout> whatever way you look at it this stuff is good stuff, either they fail, or massive streisand effect
579 2013-06-23 20:46:01 <davout> and in addition to having an imaginary japanese person as god we can have an american as martyr
580 2013-06-23 20:46:58 <phantomcircuit> davout, dollars to donuts a simple response of "we dont do that" will suffice
581 2013-06-23 20:47:29 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I wonder if it's related to all the DP promotion at the conference
582 2013-06-23 20:47:33 <davout> i think it already has been sent given the date on the letter
583 2013-06-23 20:47:37 <Luke-Jr> the Foundation really screwed up approving that
584 2013-06-23 20:47:38 <davout> (i mean the answer)
585 2013-06-23 20:48:05 <davout> Luke-Jr: DP?
586 2013-06-23 20:48:24 <sipa> davout: dead puppies, Luke-Jr's code term for SatoshiDice
587 2013-06-23 20:48:34 <davout> haha thanks
588 2013-06-23 20:48:46 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, that isn't entirely unlikely
589 2013-06-23 20:49:01 <davout> reminds me of that earthworm jim 2 stage where you had to bounce puppies around
590 2013-06-23 20:49:15 <Luke-Jr> sipa: what? how did I get the blame for that now???
591 2013-06-23 20:49:18 <gmaxwell> I think I actually originated the term.
592 2013-06-23 20:49:44 <davout> i think satoshidice is quite irrelevant in this particular matter
593 2013-06-23 20:49:44 <Luke-Jr> I went I think like a week before I finally gave in and asked "okay, what's DP?" >.>
594 2013-06-23 20:49:59 <davout> otherwise the C&D woudl have been about gambling wouldn't it?
595 2013-06-23 20:50:05 <gmaxwell> It felt weird saying SD over and over again, esp when we were mostly talking about generic behavior patterns which they exemplified but weren't unique to them.
596 2013-06-23 20:50:14 <davout> the threat to the state is much much deeper than simple online gambling
597 2013-06-23 20:50:20 <phantomcircuit> davout, in the us there are rules against facilitating payments for the purposes of gambling, those rules are significant and heavily enforced
598 2013-06-23 20:50:29 <sipa> Luke-Jr: really? apologies then - i wonder who came up with it
599 2013-06-23 20:50:41 <gmaxwell> davout: hard to say??? a lot of the money transmitter prosecution in the US in the past decade has really seemed to be online gambling related.
600 2013-06-23 20:50:57 <davout> phantomcircuit: i know, that's not what i'm saying, i'm saying the focus is probably not on online gambling, did the C&D even mention "gambling" at all ?
601 2013-06-23 20:51:01 <gmaxwell> Though its hard to tell if online gambling is the real motiviation or its just that the gambling places tended to use the fringe money processors.
602 2013-06-23 20:51:36 <gmaxwell> But as I said earlier, if you want to grasp at straws go for Aaron's nussance lawsuits accusing the CA government of unequally enforcing the money transmitter laws.
603 2013-06-23 21:12:49 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, nearly all of it has been
604 2013-06-23 21:13:03 <phantomcircuit> but that's largely been outright abject money laundering
605 2013-06-23 21:13:16 <gmaxwell> ::nods::
606 2013-06-23 21:13:36 <phantomcircuit> davout, ^