1 2013-08-06 01:22:32 <warren> hmm, walletlock is supposed to lock immediately?  doesn't seem to be working here.
  2 2013-08-06 01:23:33 <gmaxwell> warren: yes, AFAIR. Does it return right away?
  3 2013-08-06 01:24:38 <gmaxwell> taking a quick look at the code I don't see how it could fail to work right away unless it gets hung waiting to take the lock on cs_nWalletUnlockTime or the wallet (in which case it wouldn't return right away).
  4 2013-08-06 01:26:49 <warren> gmaxwell: it appears it can fail to work right away during a rescan
  5 2013-08-06 01:27:32 <gmaxwell> warren: again, does it return? if it doesn't return then it's just waiting on the lock.
  6 2013-08-06 01:28:08 <warren> used it during rescan on the debug console, not sure if it returned
  7 2013-08-06 01:35:54 <stevedekorte> it should be ok to use the same camera on both a css and a webgl renderer, right?
  8 2013-08-06 01:38:46 <lianj> stevedekorte: hehe what are you trying?
  9 2013-08-06 01:39:12 <stevedekorte> rendering a css scene over top of an open gl scene
 10 2013-08-06 01:39:28 <stevedekorte> so I can use html labels on my 3d objects
 11 2013-08-06 01:40:38 <lianj> ah :)
 12 2013-08-06 01:40:57 <stevedekorte> it's sort of working
 13 2013-08-06 01:41:12 <lianj> bitcoin related or just fun?
 14 2013-08-06 01:41:47 <stevedekorte> doh, sorry - I'm typing in the wrong window :)
 15 2013-08-06 01:41:52 <lianj> :D
 16 2013-08-06 05:10:18 <bitexchanger> I have a quick question regarding the wallet that I would rather not post here.. anyone mind quickly messaging me? Its a super easy question
 17 2013-08-06 13:36:32 <jgarzik> mornin'
 18 2013-08-06 13:39:23 <MC1984> its the middle of the afternoon
 19 2013-08-06 13:40:28 <c0rw1n> it's 17:34 here
 20 2013-08-06 13:40:39 <sipa> ^ same
 21 2013-08-06 13:40:43 <michagogo> 18:35 for me
 22 2013-08-06 13:42:14 <MC1984> im on the prime meridian so im pullin rank :p
 23 2013-08-06 13:44:11 <jgarzik> Sadly, the BFL miners are not working.  PSU issues, I think.  Avalon is pretty much plug-and-play and they Just Work.  That's the benefit of including everything in the box (including OpenWRT-capable controller, PSU, ...)
 24 2013-08-06 13:44:45 <gwillen> jgarzik: :-\\
 25 2013-08-06 13:44:52 <gwillen> jgarzik: what manner of BFL miners did you get?
 26 2013-08-06 13:44:57 <gwillen> and what symptoms are they displaying?
 27 2013-08-06 13:45:00 <jgarzik> 60 GH SC Singles
 28 2013-08-06 13:45:13 <jgarzik> Disappear from USB and don't reappear ;p
 29 2013-08-06 13:45:19 <gwillen> and _none_ are working?
 30 2013-08-06 13:45:23 <jgarzik> none
 31 2013-08-06 13:45:26 <Xeno-Genesis> what's Mike Hearn's nick?
 32 2013-08-06 13:45:29 <sipa> TD
 33 2013-08-06 13:46:04 <gwillen> jgarzik: hmmmm, yeah, if they do this when yo start mining that does sound like either power or heat
 34 2013-08-06 13:46:40 <gwillen> jgarzik: did yours come with PSUs? I got one without, and I'm running it off the beefy PSU I was previously using for GPU mining, without a problem
 35 2013-08-06 13:54:31 <jgarzik> gwillen, both Singles came with PSUs.  Each PSU is branded ButterflyLabs, is switchable 110V/220V (set to 115V on switch), and has PCIe-style power output @ 13V/31A according to label
 36 2013-08-06 13:55:12 <gwillen> jgarzik: are they failing immediately, or when you start sending them stuff to mine?
 37 2013-08-06 13:55:36 <gwillen> actually, regardless of the answer, I'd try them with a different PSU if you have one available
 38 2013-08-06 13:56:00 <gwillen> but I am expecting the latter
 39 2013-08-06 13:56:46 <gwillen> hmmm, 13V @ 31A should really be plenty; that exceeds 400W, and mine only draws 200W total when hashing
 40 2013-08-06 13:59:20 <jgarzik> gwillen, single #1+PSU1 was mining when I went to bed, but not mining when I woke up.  single #2+PSU2 could never appeared on USB, never mined successfully.  single #1 was not mining when I woke up this morning.
 41 2013-08-06 13:59:40 <gwillen> Huh.
 42 2013-08-06 13:59:55 <jgarzik> My suspicion is crappy PSU
 43 2013-08-06 14:00:22 <gwillen> the only other thing I can think of is, I know they shipped models with two different heatsink configurations
 44 2013-08-06 14:00:30 <gwillen> mine is the one with heatpipes and fins
 45 2013-08-06 14:00:37 <jgarzik> PSU #2 came with one of the two PCIe connectors installed upside down, requiring 180-degree twist in order to plug it into the miner.  PSU #1 did not have this problem, and both PCIe connectors were properly aligned.
 46 2013-08-06 14:00:43 <gwillen> ... huh.
 47 2013-08-06 14:01:20 <gwillen> I think I would take a voltmeter and check the polarity on that.
 48 2013-08-06 14:01:51 <gwillen> Just in case they actually wired it upside-down.
 49 2013-08-06 14:02:26 <gwillen> Although if that had been the case, and you plugged in one correct and one reversed connector, you should have noticed real quick.
 50 2013-08-06 14:03:25 <gwillen> jgarzik: For the one that stopped mining overnight, did your mining software report a final temperature before it fell off the bus? I would definitelyw worry about that, these things run really hot.
 51 2013-08-06 14:04:03 <gwillen> mine was reporting 75C with the case on, 65C now that I'm running it no-case
 52 2013-08-06 14:07:24 <jgarzik> gwillen, sadly no.  the bfgminer screen disappeared, leaving only a lonely "All devices disabled, cannot mine!"
 53 2013-08-06 14:07:40 <gwillen> :-\\
 54 2013-08-06 14:13:46 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, doesn't bfgminer have a logging facility?
 55 2013-08-06 14:13:48 <nsh> jgarzik, are neither of your BFL ASICs working?
 56 2013-08-06 14:13:58 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, probably
 57 2013-08-06 14:14:01 <jgarzik> nsh, no
 58 2013-08-06 14:14:23 <nsh> jgarzik, sorry to hear it
 59 2013-08-06 14:18:54 <MC1984_> is it me or is gen 1 BFL asic hardware complete pieces of shit
 60 2013-08-06 14:19:01 <MC1984_> from everything im reading
 61 2013-08-06 14:19:47 <MC1984_> it seems like thier chips did not meet any spec or expectation they had at all, and its taken them this long to hack up boxes by hand that can fulfil thier order contracts
 62 2013-08-06 14:19:57 <jgarzik> I don't think the BFL /miner/ is at fault here
 63 2013-08-06 14:20:15 <MC1984_> especially the thing where some have copper sinks and others aluminum. Sounds like a chip binning nightmare
 64 2013-08-06 14:20:18 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, as in the chip is fine but the packaging/control is bad?
 65 2013-08-06 14:20:30 <jgarzik> PSU is a totally separate piece of hardware in this case.  BFL miner accepts PCIe power connectors.  Power is fully external.
 66 2013-08-06 14:20:55 <MC1984_> how can they fuck up even the power supply. That shit is 100% commodity
 67 2013-08-06 14:21:38 <jgarzik> I think that's the problem :)  They bought cheap, poorly made Chinese PSUs from a random company that would stamp the BFL logo on the PSU
 68 2013-08-06 14:21:39 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, practice
 69 2013-08-06 14:22:07 <MC1984_> form over function
 70 2013-08-06 14:22:19 <MC1984_> at least theyre standard plugs eh
 71 2013-08-06 14:22:45 <jgarzik> Each PSU has two PCIe power connectors.  One PSU has 1 connector rightside up, the other connector upside down.  Had to rotate cable/connector 180 degrees just to plug in properly.  Other PSU did not have this problem.   <<--  sign of shoddy Chinese manufacturing process
 72 2013-08-06 14:23:29 <MC1984_> i think the chips missing every target by miles has put them right on the backfoot, and theyve been cutting corners like a marble sculptor to fulfil orders without going broke
 73 2013-08-06 14:23:30 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, everything inside the black BFL miner box is fine
 74 2013-08-06 14:23:47 <jgarzik> Let me snap a quick pic
 75 2013-08-06 14:23:56 <gwillen> jgarzik: I mean, I don't think you can be confident of that
 76 2013-08-06 14:24:17 <gwillen> jgarzik: a friend and I took mine apart, I should post pitures
 77 2013-08-06 14:24:20 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, heh, tbh i dont really care
 78 2013-08-06 14:24:27 <gwillen> jgarzik: the build quality is ... not good
 79 2013-08-06 14:24:37 <phantomcircuit> mining is entirely uninteresting to me except as a lesson to people in market dynamics
 80 2013-08-06 14:24:39 <MC1984_> i dont think final assembly is happening in china?
 81 2013-08-06 14:24:53 <phantomcircuit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_market
 82 2013-08-06 14:24:55 <MC1984_> they actually bought reflow ovens and stuff
 83 2013-08-06 14:25:16 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, that sounds like a bad idea
 84 2013-08-06 14:25:36 <MC1984_> yeah they bought a pick and place and a flow oven off ebay
 85 2013-08-06 14:25:57 <phantomcircuit> o.o
 86 2013-08-06 14:25:58 <phantomcircuit> wat
 87 2013-08-06 14:26:14 <MC1984_> im 95% sure i saw the thread and the pictures
 88 2013-08-06 14:26:37 <phantomcircuit> that's a pretty strange strategy
 89 2013-08-06 14:26:54 <phantomcircuit> sounds like they were really financing opening their own facility using the funds
 90 2013-08-06 14:26:59 <phantomcircuit> shrug
 91 2013-08-06 14:27:00 <jgarzik> https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/364783173869113344
 92 2013-08-06 14:27:10 <phantomcircuit> very little surprises me at this point...
 93 2013-08-06 14:27:17 <MC1984_> they should have just made chips
 94 2013-08-06 14:27:21 <MC1984_> all of them should, even avalon
 95 2013-08-06 14:27:39 <phantomcircuit> doesn't avalon sell their chips loose?
 96 2013-08-06 14:27:44 <MC1984_> they do now
 97 2013-08-06 14:27:54 <jgarzik> Picture caption:  The box on the left is the PSU.  It appears to be crap.  The box on the right is the BFL miner.  It appears to be working.
 98 2013-08-06 14:28:05 <MC1984_> they should have flooded the community in a tsunami of chips, and just see what comes online
 99 2013-08-06 14:28:33 <jgarzik> MC1984_, honestly, they followed a standard chip dev cycle
100 2013-08-06 14:28:35 <jgarzik> just in public
101 2013-08-06 14:28:50 <jgarzik> First, get out a limited run of dev platforms -- the chip + dev board
102 2013-08-06 14:28:53 <jgarzik> Then, flood chips
103 2013-08-06 14:28:53 <MC1984_> i can see that PSU is shit just from the lustre of the plastic tbh
104 2013-08-06 14:29:17 <jgarzik> It's just that, in this case, the chip+dev board costs money.  Usually it is free, to selected industry partners.
105 2013-08-06 14:29:26 <jgarzik> (in the case of Intel/AMD/big guys)
106 2013-08-06 14:29:40 <jgarzik> Sometimes dev boards cost $$$ in niche markets, too
107 2013-08-06 14:29:47 <MC1984_> they never sold these things as dev or reference units, they were always final production hardware
108 2013-08-06 14:30:00 <jgarzik> Agree.  But that is essentially what they are, nonetheless.
109 2013-08-06 14:30:22 <MC1984_> well thats not what people paid for
110 2013-08-06 14:30:35 <MC1984_> people paid for the nice CG mockups
111 2013-08-06 14:30:46 <MC1984_> wheres my damn coffeemug heater?
112 2013-08-06 14:30:52 <jgarzik> Inevitable consequence of the bitcoin market.  Everybody would scream if dev boards that could actually mine were given away, and chip lifecycles were 1-2 years ;p
113 2013-08-06 14:31:00 <jgarzik> chip dev lifecycles, I mean
114 2013-08-06 14:31:20 <jgarzik> Plus, nobody has the funding to do a real dev setup anyway
115 2013-08-06 14:31:29 <jgarzik> like Intel and the big boys do
116 2013-08-06 14:32:28 <MC1984_> not to do finished products
117 2013-08-06 14:33:12 <MC1984_> BFL had enough investment for chips and a reference design. They could have spent more making sure they didnt miss TDP by over 100%
118 2013-08-06 14:33:21 <MC1984_> by investment i mean preorders ofc
119 2013-08-06 14:33:24 <jgarzik> Do you think the bitcoin community would prefer a finished product later, or an unfinished product now now now?  ;-)
120 2013-08-06 14:34:15 <MC1984_> I think selling bare chips would have gotten working finished miners into peoples hands sooner than BFL trying to do it all themselves
121 2013-08-06 14:34:22 <MC1984_> division of labour mufo
122 2013-08-06 14:34:37 <nsh> i think the options there are a bit generous jgarzik. you mean maybe laterlaterlater or just a-lot-later-than-you-expected
123 2013-08-06 14:34:52 <nsh> ;)
124 2013-08-06 14:35:05 <MC1984_> yeah
125 2013-08-06 14:35:26 <MC1984_> look how fast stick miners happend after chips started getting sold
126 2013-08-06 14:35:41 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, im not sure they could have gotten working bare chips any faster
127 2013-08-06 14:36:00 <phantomcircuit> especially since they wouldn't have been able to do preorders for 16k USD
128 2013-08-06 14:36:27 <MC1984_> maybe they could have gotten real investment
129 2013-08-06 14:36:38 <MC1984_> instead of the afaik legally dubious preorder thing
130 2013-08-06 14:37:01 <MC1984_> it was like kickstarter without the hipsters
131 2013-08-06 14:37:33 <MC1984_> for someone with no stake, im sho asspained at BFL
132 2013-08-06 14:39:05 <MC1984_> mybe i want as much hardware as possible out there before someone gets the bright idea to class sha256x2 hardware as a money mint or clearing house, with the attendant ruinous regulation
133 2013-08-06 14:39:39 <MC1984_> no one really knows whether fincen thinks miners need to talk to them still do they
134 2013-08-06 14:43:49 <jgarzik> I think "real investment" could occur now, but not 1-2 years ago
135 2013-08-06 14:44:12 <jgarzik> pre-order was potentially scammy, dubious, etc.  but also seems like the only way
136 2013-08-06 14:44:31 <MC1984_> hey those foam inserts on that box are pretty nice though
137 2013-08-06 14:44:33 <jgarzik> Nobody but the low level engineers were interesting in putting effort towards a bitcoin mining chip
138 2013-08-06 14:44:56 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, the way they structured the pre-orders was almost certainly illegal
139 2013-08-06 14:45:07 <phantomcircuit> but they're small enough scale that i doubt anything is going to happen
140 2013-08-06 14:45:19 <phantomcircuit> especially if they deliver relatively soon
141 2013-08-06 14:45:29 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, perhaps -- but I think this is a case of you can avoid legal trouble by ... delivering
142 2013-08-06 14:45:44 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, or near-100% refund
143 2013-08-06 14:46:06 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, right it's pretty much impossible to have any legal trouble if there's not damages beyond loss of income
144 2013-08-06 14:47:04 <MC1984_> could loss of income be argued ue tot he nature of the product and the unreasonable delay
145 2013-08-06 14:47:30 <MC1984_> i meant he ones still not delivered will never break even now right
146 2013-08-06 14:47:34 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, sure, but good luck proving it
147 2013-08-06 14:48:05 <jgarzik> Yeah -- the dynamic nature of the system makes proving that difficult
148 2013-08-06 14:48:24 <jgarzik> Because the act of delivering, by any player, changing the profitability, which is always unknown moving forward.
149 2013-08-06 14:48:29 <jgarzik> *changes
150 2013-08-06 14:49:06 <MC1984_> lawyers can work with shit like compound interest right
151 2013-08-06 14:52:09 <gjs278> do you think KNC is the next place to hit up for preorders that will actually sell
152 2013-08-06 14:52:29 <gjs278> I don't know of any others that are taking preorders and have reasonable prices/ship dates
153 2013-08-06 14:53:04 <jgarzik> Bitfury?
154 2013-08-06 14:53:13 <jgarzik> ASICMINER?
155 2013-08-06 14:53:28 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, it's way more complicated than that, since BFL could pretty reasonably argue that nobody is guaranteed profits, indeed if they were clever they could argue that bitcoin mining is a perfect market and thus profits are effectively guaranteed to stay close to zero
156 2013-08-06 14:53:58 <gjs278> what is asicminer selling aside from shares/those sticks
157 2013-08-06 14:54:06 <jgarzik> that's it