1 2014-01-04 00:02:58 <shesek> has bc.i changed to displaying USD values by default?
  2 2014-01-04 00:03:10 <shesek> it keeps changing back to usd for some reason
  3 2014-01-04 00:03:53 <jakov> for me it keeps displaying in CNY
  4 2014-01-04 00:04:04 <jakov> go figure
  5 2014-01-04 00:18:42 <Doge_Funnie> hey
  6 2014-01-04 02:02:26 <DBordello> What was the conversation like when FreeNode bounced the bootstrap client off the network?
  7 2014-01-04 02:03:47 <phantomcircuit> KILLED x100
  8 2014-01-04 02:04:15 <DBordello> Well, let me rephrase that .  What was the conversation like right before that :)
  9 2014-01-04 02:25:03 <DBordello> Do the DNS seeds return static values, or are they reflective of the current network?
 10 2014-01-04 02:25:09 <DBordello> I guess it probably depends on each host
 11 2014-01-04 02:25:10 <sipa> it depends
 12 2014-01-04 02:25:35 <sipa> jgarzik's one returns a static list
 13 2014-01-04 02:25:38 <DBordello> seeed.bitcoin.sipa.be
 14 2014-01-04 02:25:48 <sipa> the others serve data based on network crawling
 15 2014-01-04 02:25:49 <DBordello> seed.bitcoin.*
 16 2014-01-04 02:25:58 <DBordello> Interesting.
 17 2014-01-04 02:26:24 <sipa> see http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.tzt
 18 2014-01-04 02:26:50 <sipa> txt
 19 2014-01-04 02:27:07 <DBordello> big list
 20 2014-01-04 02:27:26 <DBordello> Is the summary besides the INT list of what the static addrs coorespond to?
 21 2014-01-04 02:27:44 <sipa> int?
 22 2014-01-04 02:28:11 <DBordello> I assumed the pnSeed[] list in chainparams.cpp were the static addresses.
 23 2014-01-04 02:28:25 <sipa> those are hardcoded fallbacks
 24 2014-01-04 02:28:34 <sipa> and they're likely very outdated
 25 2014-01-04 02:29:17 <DBordello> Fair enough
 26 2014-01-04 02:30:00 <DBordello> Are the DNS seeds used first?
 27 2014-01-04 02:30:56 <gmaxwell> the first connection usually comes from a dns seed, subsiquent connections tend to use older addresses from the address manager.
 28 2014-01-04 02:31:45 <DBordello> gmaxwell, cool, thank you.
 29 2014-01-04 02:32:07 <gmaxwell> though I wonder how much slower the initial connection would be to always prefer addrman, and only call dns if and only if it doesn't have any recent peers to try or if it isn't successful in a few seconds.
 30 2014-01-04 02:33:02 <DBordello> addrman is a list of recently seen peers?  It is seeded with pnSeed[]?
 31 2014-01-04 02:33:11 <DBordello> Or is pnSeed only used if the dns seed fails
 32 2014-01-04 02:34:33 <gmaxwell> only if its been up for some time (how much? I don't remember) and it doesn't know of any peers yet.
 33 2014-01-04 02:34:43 <deanclkclk> hope someone will help me with this and I'm not off topic in the channel :(
 34 2014-01-04 02:34:59 <DBordello> so, almost never used :)
 35 2014-01-04 02:35:35 <deanclkclk> So I want some guidance on an issue. If I call -walletnotify from by bitcoind to a shell script to call a url to a website that updates my Postgres db with the transaction amount. What if at that time, at the point of calling the url, the website is down. When it is back up, the db balance will not sync with what's in Bitcoind account balance for the user
 36 2014-01-04 02:36:08 <gmaxwell> my opinion is that walletnotify is not useful.
 37 2014-01-04 02:36:35 <DBordello> deanclkclk, resync periodically
 38 2014-01-04 02:36:35 <gmaxwell> if you use the listsinceblock you can keep the last pollpoint in your database.
 39 2014-01-04 02:37:26 <deanclkclk> gmaxwell: u are talking to me?
 40 2014-01-04 02:39:32 <DBordello> he was
 41 2014-01-04 02:40:55 <DBordello> How many DNS seeds are polled for new peers?
 42 2014-01-04 02:41:34 <EasyAt> Is there an issue if 2 coinbases are exactly the same?
 43 2014-01-04 02:42:51 <justanotheruser> EasyAt: Two coinbase transactions being exactly the same would be an issue because it would mean sha256 has a collision found.
 44 2014-01-04 02:43:30 <justanotheruser> If you're referring to the text in two coinbases being the same, then nio
 45 2014-01-04 02:43:43 <EasyAt> Yes, that's what I mean
 46 2014-01-04 02:44:02 <berndj> i thought the coinbase tx (now) contains the block height
 47 2014-01-04 02:44:26 <justanotheruser> berndj: hmm. I thought that was coming out in .9?
 48 2014-01-04 02:45:55 <EasyAt> All coinbase questions are impossible to find because of the corp
 49 2014-01-04 02:46:10 <justanotheruser> EasyAt: the corp?
 50 2014-01-04 02:46:14 <justanotheruser> oh
 51 2014-01-04 02:46:26 <DBordello> EasyAt, agreed, just looking for the wiki page
 52 2014-01-04 02:48:22 <justanotheruser> berndj: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0034.mediawiki
 53 2014-01-04 02:48:41 <justanotheruser> It looks like the BIP was accepted. Not sure if it's part of bitcoin yet though.
 54 2014-01-04 02:50:07 <EasyAt> justanotheruser: the only way you would have a collision is if you put the same time and same text in 2 consecutive coinbases, correct?
 55 2014-01-04 02:50:14 <EasyAt> Would that even be accepted?
 56 2014-01-04 02:50:49 <justanotheruser> EasyAt: the coinbase transaction isn't generated only from the text
 57 2014-01-04 02:50:57 <EasyAt> I mean would you be allowed to create a block that has a coinbase TX with the same loce_time as an earlier one?
 58 2014-01-04 02:51:03 <EasyAt> lock_time*
 59 2014-01-04 02:51:37 <EasyAt> Yes, I understand it is a full TX, but the inputs are what you choose
 60 2014-01-04 02:53:51 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: there is no time in coinbase transactions.
 61 2014-01-04 02:54:11 <gmaxwell> the coinbase txn coinbase field requires a blockheight.
 62 2014-01-04 02:54:16 <gmaxwell> (now)
 63 2014-01-04 02:55:26 <gmaxwell> though now that you mention it, I dunno why instead we didn't put the height that it would mature at in the locktime field but set the sequence to maximum.
 64 2014-01-04 02:55:31 <EasyAt> Ah, is that protocol specific?  Would my blocks not be accepted if I had time?
 65 2014-01-04 02:55:40 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: the exact value is required.
 66 2014-01-04 02:56:08 <EasyAt> Hm, so reference client wouldn't forward or even consider a block that doesn't have block height in that space?
 67 2014-01-04 02:56:40 <justanotheruser> berndj: I just checked the last block by eligus to see if BIP34 was implemented
 68 2014-01-04 02:56:55 <justanotheruser> Encoded in block 278511 is "I gave a cry of astonishment. I saw and thought nothing of the other four Martian monsters; my attention was riveted upon the nearer incident. Simultaneously two other shells burst in the air near the body as the hood twisted round in time to receive, but not in time to dodge, the fourth shell."
 69 2014-01-04 02:57:37 <justanotheruser>  So no, no block height
 70 2014-01-04 02:57:41 <gmaxwell> omg, it's a martian attack.
 71 2014-01-04 02:57:45 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: you're incorrect.
 72 2014-01-04 02:57:54 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Please enlighten me
 73 2014-01-04 02:58:43 <alex_fun> hey folks
 74 2014-01-04 02:58:44 <gmaxwell>             "coinbase" : "03ef3f040d00456c69676975730052c76e0ffabe6d6da4af2f44f1177394ba21610ef216d52f22bde6251200eb7bf7b6169d8299b5c40400000000000000002f737332362f00509de314e67f000000000f11",
 75 2014-01-04 02:59:08 <alex_fun> the nodes after they found each other are they still shown in irc channel?
 76 2014-01-04 02:59:14 <alex_fun> mining nodes
 77 2014-01-04 02:59:23 <alex_fun> or when they found nodes they get off irc
 78 2014-01-04 03:00:30 <Plasmastar> How is that not bitcoin related. lol
 79 2014-01-04 03:00:42 <DBordello> gmaxwell, that sounded bitcoin related, perhaps related to the old bootstrap method
 80 2014-01-04 03:00:50 <gmaxwell> Plasmastar: because bitcoin hasn't used IRC for years, all the altcoins do.
 81 2014-01-04 03:00:55 <DBordello> ah
 82 2014-01-04 03:01:08 <gmaxwell> It's not, the guy only ever asks altcoin questions and he's been asked over and over again to stop.
 83 2014-01-04 03:01:18 <deanclkclk> gmaxwell: listsinceblock "the last pollpoint" is the last blockhash right?
 84 2014-01-04 03:01:23 <DBordello> fair enough, you obviously have more data than I do
 85 2014-01-04 03:01:25 <Plasmastar> I actually came here to ask about it, but changed my mind shortly after I entered, about a week or two ago.
 86 2014-01-04 03:01:45 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: why did getrawtransaction return that then?
 87 2014-01-04 03:01:53 <gmaxwell> Plasmastar: I wouldn't have punted you if you asked that question, I'd point out bitcoin doesn't use it anymore. :)
 88 2014-01-04 03:02:11 <Plasmastar> Still some #bitcoin channels on that network.
 89 2014-01-04 03:02:24 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: return what?  I gave you what it returned.
 90 2014-01-04 03:02:41 <gmaxwell> Plasmastar: yea, sure, from really old copies of bitcoin people have left running and forgotten about, though most don't work right anymore.
 91 2014-01-04 03:02:52 <Plasmastar> lol
 92 2014-01-04 03:02:58 <DBordello> Could a corrupt DNS seed isolate new nodes from the rest of the network?  Are multiple DNS seeds polled?
 93 2014-01-04 03:03:10 <gmaxwell> DBordello: all of them are polled.
 94 2014-01-04 03:03:23 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: oh, it looks like my disabled javascript give me the default ascii text for the converter. That's embarassing
 95 2014-01-04 03:03:30 <DBordello> gmaxwell, good :)  So why was th order recently changed?
 96 2014-01-04 03:03:30 <gmaxwell> DBordello: only a newly initilized node. And being isolated doesn't really do anything interesting.
 97 2014-01-04 03:03:56 <gmaxwell> DBordello: because it ends up trying peers from the first one polled first.
 98 2014-01-04 03:03:58 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: so eligus doesn't have bible quotes anymore?
 99 2014-01-04 03:04:02 <gmaxwell> (because they get added first)
100 2014-01-04 03:04:13 <DBordello> gmaxwell, thank you for the explanation
101 2014-01-04 03:05:03 <midnightmagic> alex_fun has been, just for the record, kicked and banned many times.  People with that kind of record, IMO, don't really deserve the same leniency one might afford regular people
102 2014-01-04 03:05:22 <justanotheruser> midnightmagic: he also has been kickbanned from #coindev
103 2014-01-04 03:05:35 <DBordello> If you isolated a node, and kept difficulty low, couldn't you fake confirmations?  Keep an eye on the real network, include fake transactions to addresses and confirm them?
104 2014-01-04 03:06:24 <midnightmagic> Keeping difficulty "low" would be the hard part. It could take a while.
105 2014-01-04 03:06:25 <gmaxwell> DBordello: no, because the software has hardcoded into it some idea of the network when it was produced. E.g. in the simplest form bitcoin software would contain the sum-difficulty of the real network.
106 2014-01-04 03:06:55 <gmaxwell> DBordello: so you'd have to start from a recent block which has an insanely high difficulty, and then mine 2016 blocks for every factor of 4 reduction.
107 2014-01-04 03:06:56 <midnightmagic> ah, new nodes..
108 2014-01-04 03:07:43 <gmaxwell> (fwiw, just assume the attacker is the user's ISP for an even better attack model)
109 2014-01-04 03:07:47 <DBordello> gmaxwell, ah yes, forgot about checkpoints
110 2014-01-04 03:07:52 <gmaxwell> erk
111 2014-01-04 03:08:04 <gmaxwell> well continue forgetting about checkpoints, you don't need checkpoints to address this.
112 2014-01-04 03:08:17 <gmaxwell> You just need a "we know there exists a chain with at least X work"
113 2014-01-04 03:08:23 <DBordello> so there is a minimum proof of work to accept a chain?
114 2014-01-04 03:08:32 <DBordello> clever.
115 2014-01-04 03:08:53 <DBordello> My compliments to the chef.
116 2014-01-04 03:09:01 <gmaxwell> (I hope after headers first is implemented we can remove or at least substantially diminish the role of checkpoints)
117 2014-01-04 04:30:26 <devrandom> iss there a way to perform an ECC signature with a split key?  i.e. without joining the key on one machine first.
118 2014-01-04 04:30:32 <devrandom> *is
119 2014-01-04 04:33:19 <gmaxwell> -ENOTSPECIFICENOUGH
120 2014-01-04 04:33:46 <gmaxwell> Do you mean an ECDSA signature? if so — then ignoring wank like multiparty computation— No. Otherwise we wouldn't need checkmultisig.
121 2014-01-04 04:34:10 <gmaxwell> But if you mean "ECC signature" then, yes, a schnorr signature can natively do threshold signing.
122 2014-01-04 04:34:32 <devrandom> yes, I meant for bitcoin
123 2014-01-04 04:34:46 <gmaxwell> devrandom: why isn't checkmultsig enough for you?
124 2014-01-04 04:34:48 <devrandom> interesting re schnorr
125 2014-01-04 04:35:19 <devrandom> well, it's limited these days to 2-of-3, which is an issue for a use case I'm looking into
126 2014-01-04 04:37:11 <devrandom> in this use case it would benefit from (2-of-2 OR (1-of-2 AND 1 of 3))
127 2014-01-04 04:38:20 <devrandom> oops, I meant (1-of-2 AND 2 of 3)
128 2014-01-04 04:39:24 <devrandom> the 2-of-3 acts as a backup to one of the original 2
129 2014-01-04 04:43:24 <gmaxwell> devrandom: you can do that in bitcoin transactions, though such a form is not yet standard, it's perfectly valid and accepted in blocks.
130 2014-01-04 04:43:45 <gmaxwell> devrandom: actually luke wanted exactly that same rule
131 2014-01-04 04:44:16 <devrandom> great minds and so on
132 2014-01-04 04:44:19 <gmaxwell> Luke and Wizkid or ((luke or wizkid) and (someother people))
133 2014-01-04 04:44:26 <gmaxwell> for his pool buffer account.
134 2014-01-04 04:44:39 <gmaxwell> if you reuse the 2of2 pubkeys it results in a shorter script.
135 2014-01-04 04:44:48 <devrandom> only Eligius will mine that, right?
136 2014-01-04 04:45:06 <devrandom> so will take 1 hr+ to confirm
137 2014-01-04 04:45:06 <gmaxwell> in any case, schnorr can do n of m, but you'd have to use script to get a (2-of-2 OR (1-of-2 AND 1 of 3)) regardless.
138 2014-01-04 04:45:36 <devrandom> schnorr is not applicable to Bitcoin, right?
139 2014-01-04 04:45:40 <gmaxwell> right.
140 2014-01-04 04:46:08 <gmaxwell> devrandom: in any case, we can add more kinds of standard scripts pretty easily, that its not standard shouldn't be huge barrier if you have a real application.
141 2014-01-04 04:46:38 <gmaxwell> The fact that the signatures would be kinda big might be more of one.
142 2014-01-04 04:47:02 <gmaxwell> though at least for luke's application the 2-of-2 is the primary release and the rest is only for emergencies so it doesn't matter that its kinda big.
143 2014-01-04 04:47:31 <devrandom> good point
144 2014-01-04 04:47:45 <devrandom> the sigs take most of the space...
145 2014-01-04 04:47:53 <devrandom> but only 2 sigs
146 2014-01-04 04:48:11 <gmaxwell> yea, well how many distinct pubkeys will you have?
147 2014-01-04 04:48:35 <devrandom> 4 or 5
148 2014-01-04 04:48:52 <gmaxwell> 7 pubkeys = 231 bytes, ... bigger than 2 signatures. 5 = 165 bytes..
149 2014-01-04 04:49:19 <devrandom> let me think more carefully about the use case and I'll make a proposal
150 2014-01-04 04:49:36 <devrandom> I wasn't sure how much flexibility there is these days on relaxing isStandard
151 2014-01-04 04:50:16 <gmaxwell> needs usecase, testing on testnet, patch, and test plan. Otherwise it's a rubber stamping from there unless something looks weird or concerning about it.
152 2014-01-04 04:50:54 <gmaxwell> if you can generalize up the pattern without making it more complicated to think about, and get more things under it that would be good.
153 2014-01-04 04:51:23 <devrandom> got it
154 2014-01-04 04:52:25 <devrandom> thank you for the input
155 2014-01-04 05:49:46 <deanclkclk> could someone explain to me how they would use listsinceblock to monitor confirmed transaction on a site? Sorry if this is off topic for the channel if that's the case
156 2014-01-04 05:50:19 <deanclkclk> confirmed transactionS
157 2014-01-04 06:06:45 <maaku> deanclkclk: these questions are appropriate for #bitcoin
158 2014-01-04 06:06:59 <maaku> (I'd answer but never used listsinceblock myself)
159 2014-01-04 06:07:00 <deanclkclk> ok
160 2014-01-04 06:56:13 <netg> is sipas "nodespy" avabile?
161 2014-01-04 07:29:32 <gmaxwell> roconnor_: current xkcd tells us why purecoin was bugfree
162 2014-01-04 07:58:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: quite accurately :)
163 2014-01-04 07:58:33 <sipa> netg: nodespy?
164 2014-01-04 08:01:58 <robonerd> the current xkcd, being careful to not forget the alt text, is sheer genius
165 2014-01-04 08:10:27 <netg> the programm/tool with that you generated that big bitcoind node list
166 2014-01-04 08:12:23 <sipa> netg: github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder
167 2014-01-04 08:14:03 <netg> tnx
168 2014-01-04 08:25:19 <abrkn> i'm looking at the bitcoinjs-lib at npm, attempting to create a transaction that sweeps a list of inputs. anyone used it for that? not sure how to sign the tx with the corresponding private keys