1 2014-02-11 00:08:47 <dugo> maybe i should make my node drop forge overy tx as a matter of principle
2 2014-02-11 00:09:29 <todamoon> on the positive side of things, 1 BTC still trades for exactly 1 BTC
3 2014-02-11 00:09:59 <todamoon> oops, wrong channel, sorry
4 2014-02-11 00:15:04 <jakov> dugo im 99% sure some node out there is doing that
5 2014-02-11 00:15:17 <jakov> or a certain probability of relayed tx
6 2014-02-11 00:15:41 <jakov> if you look, some people are reporting doublespends cause by malleable txids
7 2014-02-11 00:15:49 <jakov> mildly annoying
8 2014-02-11 00:15:58 <jakov> long term good if it stops people relying on txid
9 2014-02-11 00:16:05 <jakov> This Is Actually Good News : D
10 2014-02-11 00:17:02 <muhoo> what should be relied upon instead of txid?
11 2014-02-11 00:17:27 <dugo> txid, but only after firm establishment in chain, no!?
12 2014-02-11 00:17:28 <lianj> muhoo: spent inputs
13 2014-02-11 00:19:37 <jakov> or outputs
14 2014-02-11 00:19:50 <Goonie> Short explanation how mutant transactions are shown in Bitcoin Wallet: https://plus.google.com/b/101256420499771441772/101256420499771441772/posts/bURxFhrKfcq
15 2014-02-11 00:21:03 <muhoo> skinnkavaj: bunch people like me sticking their heads in to ask "wtf?" and get educated.
16 2014-02-11 00:21:46 <Aahzmundus> ^
17 2014-02-11 00:22:57 <dugo> right, imagine receiving a confirmation mail, we just payed you, in case of trouble, please refer to the following reference <insert big festering pile of hex>
18 2014-02-11 00:26:22 <edcba> dugo: that's what url are for ?
19 2014-02-11 00:39:38 <dugo> would do, i'd prefer a drop forge proof hash though..
20 2014-02-11 00:39:51 <dugo> .. any gaping holes in here? https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e
21 2014-02-11 00:57:34 <lechuga_> im wondering if bitcoin is too accessible
22 2014-02-11 00:57:53 <lechuga_> there are probably so many broken web services being created which process bitcoin
23 2014-02-11 00:58:09 <lechuga_> if gox did it im sure theres at least 100 more
24 2014-02-11 00:59:09 <lechuga_> everyone is going to think building a payment processor is as simple as crafting a little bit of php
25 2014-02-11 00:59:14 <lechuga_> well maybe not now
26 2014-02-11 00:59:42 <aynstein> the problems involving *bsd and bitcoind are way in the past right?
27 2014-02-11 01:05:42 <wilsonnl> anyone in here that can help me with some compiling issues on Mavericks?
28 2014-02-11 01:06:04 <maaku> wilsonnl: post the issues
29 2014-02-11 01:06:13 <maaku> (ask, don't ask to ask)
30 2014-02-11 01:07:21 <michagogo> cloud|Grrr... bc.i's unspent output lookup API returns TXIDs byteswapped -_-
31 2014-02-11 01:08:31 <wilsonnl> after i type "make -f makefile.osx" it spits out an error saying: " ld: symbol(s) not found for architecture x86_64"
32 2014-02-11 01:11:41 <paracyst> you have to update xcode
33 2014-02-11 01:12:01 <wilsonnl> just installed it on a fresh vmware image
34 2014-02-11 01:13:58 <lechuga_> vmware supports osx images?
35 2014-02-11 01:14:28 <wilsonnl> yeah running 10.8 and 10.9 on windows using vmware
36 2014-02-11 01:14:36 <lechuga_> cool
37 2014-02-11 01:14:47 <wilsonnl> yeah its handy
38 2014-02-11 01:15:00 <lechuga_> i thought they only supportes windows/linux images
39 2014-02-11 01:15:03 <lechuga_> supported*
40 2014-02-11 01:15:34 <wilsonnl> yeah you have to fiddle with it, but it's possible
41 2014-02-11 01:16:02 <wilsonnl> but for some reason compiling lite/bitcoind on mavericks is a pain
42 2014-02-11 01:16:13 <wilsonnl> it worked fine on 10.8 (mountain lion)
43 2014-02-11 01:16:54 <wilsonnl> but if i compile it on mountain lion it won't run on mavericks (10.9
44 2014-02-11 01:17:13 <lechuga_> it doesnt say what symbols arent found?
45 2014-02-11 01:17:42 <wilsonnl> hmmz let em check
46 2014-02-11 01:18:37 <wilsonnl> hers a pastebin: http://pastebin.com/sJGtTvRD
47 2014-02-11 01:21:07 <lechuga_> check here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3228
48 2014-02-11 01:21:28 <gmaxwell> kpit_d: /window 5
49 2014-02-11 01:21:32 <gmaxwell> ooops
50 2014-02-11 01:21:38 <wilsonnl> haha nice, im reading that same page (again)
51 2014-02-11 01:21:46 <wilsonnl> i dont understand how to use the: ./configure stuff
52 2014-02-11 01:22:14 <wilsonnl> i installed the boost libs using brew, have them in "=/usr/local/Cellar/boost/1.55.0/lib"
53 2014-02-11 01:22:58 <michagogo> cloud|wilsonnl: have you read https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-osx.md ?
54 2014-02-11 01:24:00 <lechuga_> id try the last guys comment
55 2014-02-11 01:24:12 <lechuga_> just paste the command he used
56 2014-02-11 01:25:13 <wilsonnl> @lechuga_ if i paste that it gives me an error saying it cant find the file/folder specified
57 2014-02-11 01:25:17 <andytoshi> anyone here familiar with autotools? AX_CHECK_LINK_FLAG macro is not expanding in my configure.ac
58 2014-02-11 01:25:26 <andytoshi> so it appears in ./configure verbatim and bash bombs out on it
59 2014-02-11 01:25:32 <wilsonnl> @michagogo|cloud reading it now
60 2014-02-11 01:25:33 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: thats AX
61 2014-02-11 01:25:45 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: you probably forgot to include the actual macro for it
62 2014-02-11 01:25:53 <andytoshi> DiabloD3: it's in my m4/ directory
63 2014-02-11 01:26:12 <andytoshi> bitcoind doesn't do anything beyond that it seems
64 2014-02-11 01:26:22 <DiabloD3> hrm.
65 2014-02-11 01:26:26 <DiabloD3> weird.
66 2014-02-11 01:26:48 <DiabloD3> because it sounds like you're forgetting to call a command somewhere
67 2014-02-11 01:27:41 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: like, the typical autogen.sh is alocal, autoheader, autoconf
68 2014-02-11 01:27:44 <DiabloD3> er, aclocal
69 2014-02-11 01:27:56 <andytoshi> oh, i only have autoconf
70 2014-02-11 01:28:03 <DiabloD3> yeah you need aclocal too
71 2014-02-11 01:28:17 <DiabloD3> and automake after autoconf if you're using that lemon
72 2014-02-11 01:28:51 <andytoshi> oh, i have autoreconf. it does all that
73 2014-02-11 01:29:05 <andytoshi> the offensive file is https://github.com/apoelstra/cj-client/blob/master/configure.ac
74 2014-02-11 01:29:34 <DiabloD3> I dont trust autoreconf
75 2014-02-11 01:29:38 <DiabloD3> it sometimes goes tits up
76 2014-02-11 01:29:50 <DiabloD3> I dont like how autotools is largely undocumented magic
77 2014-02-11 01:30:28 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: try doing aclocal; autoconf and see if it fixes it
78 2014-02-11 01:31:38 <andytoshi> DiabloD3: will do. btw i can see that in aclocal.m4 for bitcoind the correct file is included, but not in aclocal.m4 for my project
79 2014-02-11 01:31:58 <andytoshi> so i think you're right, the magic is failing
80 2014-02-11 01:32:36 <DiabloD3> yeah, and its always fuuuuuuuuuun to debug that
81 2014-02-11 01:32:41 <DiabloD3> and by fun I mean you want to firebomb RMS's house
82 2014-02-11 01:33:09 <DiabloD3> and by house, I mean his van down by the river
83 2014-02-11 01:33:30 <lechuga_> does rms really live in a van?
84 2014-02-11 01:33:35 <andytoshi> hahaha
85 2014-02-11 01:33:39 <lechuga_> i wouldnt be shocked
86 2014-02-11 01:33:42 <lechuga_> hes kinda out there
87 2014-02-11 01:33:45 <andytoshi> (i don't know either)
88 2014-02-11 01:36:53 <lechuga_> For personal reasons, he generally does not actively browse the web from his computer; rather, he uses wget and reads the fetched pages from his e-mail mailbox, claiming to limit direct access via browsers to a few sites such as his own or those related to his work with GNU and the FSF.
89 2014-02-11 01:37:01 <lechuga_> man he mustve been owned a ton
90 2014-02-11 01:37:08 <lechuga_> to go to those lengths
91 2014-02-11 01:37:52 <andytoshi> got it, thx DiabloD3. the toplevel Makefile.am needed ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS = -Im4
92 2014-02-11 01:38:02 <andytoshi> (one of the magic commands told me to put that line in that file)
93 2014-02-11 01:38:15 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: yeah, you need to start with a working makefile.am
94 2014-02-11 01:38:24 <DiabloD3> you cant just write one from scratch when using other autotools
95 2014-02-11 01:41:07 <da2ce7> hey, of the top of you head's can anyone please tell me the pull request that sorted the bitcoin header files?
96 2014-02-11 01:41:34 <da2ce7> and cleaned up the unnecessary #includes,
97 2014-02-11 01:49:08 <dexX7> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address= kinda large spike in orphaned blocks recently?
98 2014-02-11 01:50:39 <lianj> dugo: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e#diff-9c8594b107c5d10b42944ad46a2f1a76R82 does this just return https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/blob/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e/src/script.cpp#L1075
99 2014-02-11 01:50:44 <lianj> *doesn't
100 2014-02-11 01:51:35 <lianj> so the hash is always 0100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 due to the return 1 bug
101 2014-02-11 01:53:12 <ZjP> What on earth is mtgox talking about. The solution is years old and enforcing DER, no?
102 2014-02-11 01:55:10 <lianj> ZjP: no
103 2014-02-11 01:55:13 <lianj> but yea
104 2014-02-11 01:55:34 <ZjP> lianj: What?
105 2014-02-11 01:55:47 <da2ce7> found it, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2767
106 2014-02-11 01:57:24 <lianj> ZjP: just der wouldn't work
107 2014-02-11 02:08:33 <mailaa1> rofl
108 2014-02-11 02:09:14 <mailaa1> someone trid to troll me
109 2014-02-11 02:09:16 <mailaa1> (02:06:59) chimrichalds: u fuck with me
110 2014-02-11 02:09:16 <mailaa1> (02:07:04) chimrichalds: you fucking with a big dick
111 2014-02-11 02:09:16 <mailaa1> (02:07:04) mailaa: that's fuckig bad
112 2014-02-11 02:09:16 <mailaa1> (02:07:09) chimrichalds: i fuck a lot of women
113 2014-02-11 02:09:16 <mailaa1> (02:07:11) chimrichalds: they all love me
114 2014-02-11 02:09:16 <mailaa1> (02:07:13) mailaa: why dont you just kill yourself?
115 2014-02-11 02:09:17 <mailaa1> (02:07:20) chimrichalds: i feed them
116 2014-02-11 02:09:17 <mailaa1> (02:07:22) mailaa: why did you tell us all about it?
117 2014-02-11 02:09:17 <mailaa1> (02:07:27) chimrichalds: i stick my dick in their stomach
118 2014-02-11 02:09:18 <mailaa1> (02:07:43) mailaa: you know we are bloomberg?
119 2014-02-11 02:09:18 <mailaa1> (02:07:45) chimrichalds: if i killed myself
120 2014-02-11 02:09:19 <mailaa1> (02:07:50) chimrichalds: would u wanna watch it
121 2014-02-11 02:09:19 <mailaa1> (02:07:51) chimrichalds: on stream
122 2014-02-11 02:09:21 <mailaa1> (02:07:52) mailaa: did somethig badhapp?
123 2014-02-11 02:09:42 <mailaa1> because i have no limits on how sick i ca say
124 2014-02-11 02:10:23 <muhoo> please use a pastebin
125 2014-02-11 02:11:03 <mailaa1> (02:07:52) mailaa: did somethig badhapp?
126 2014-02-11 02:11:03 <mailaa1> (02:08:10) mailaa: that mae you angry, or are you just naturally a gay?
127 2014-02-11 02:11:03 <mailaa1> (02:08:11) User is not logged in
128 2014-02-11 02:11:03 <mailaa1> (02:10:37) mailaa: fuck you
129 2014-02-11 02:11:03 <mailaa1> (02:10:37) User is not logged in
130 2014-02-11 02:11:03 <mailaa1> (02:10:39) mailaa: idiot
131 2014-02-11 02:11:04 <mailaa1> (02:10:40) User is not logged in
132 2014-02-11 02:11:07 <mailaa1> no
133 2014-02-11 02:24:31 <lechuga_> lol
134 2014-02-11 02:25:14 <lechuga_> ZjP: https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
135 2014-02-11 02:25:21 <lechuga_> its more involved than just DER
136 2014-02-11 02:26:09 <lechuga_> i wonder wat would happen to bitcoin if sipa/gmaxwell/gavin/jgarzik just decided they were over it
137 2014-02-11 02:26:18 <lechuga_> scarier than doublespends
138 2014-02-11 02:26:51 <gotnate> all? or any? what happened when satoshi quit?
139 2014-02-11 02:27:11 <lechuga_> if any of them left it would be a blow but if all left
140 2014-02-11 02:27:16 <lechuga_> seems catastrophic
141 2014-02-11 02:27:39 <ZjP> lechuga_: Yeah, I've saw that since my message. I was confused since the publically visible transaction problems were caused by them failing the DER check. I didn't consider that since this caused them problems, it was implied that they were reliant on transaction ids, and therefore would be vulnerable to malliability in general
142 2014-02-11 02:28:28 <gotnate> gox has been doing just fine and dandy at blowing it all by themselves
143 2014-02-11 02:28:57 <lechuga_> ZjP: yup
144 2014-02-11 02:29:54 <lechuga_> gotnate: satoshi left before any1 used it
145 2014-02-11 02:30:02 <lianj> blowing cheap coins and a upcoming week of confused media reports you mean?
146 2014-02-11 02:30:03 <lechuga_> keeping it going seems like more of a day to day struggle
147 2014-02-11 02:31:36 <todamoon> to da moooooooooo000000000000on
148 2014-02-11 02:31:59 <todamoon> china is going to da moon
149 2014-02-11 02:32:23 <lechuga_> ive read that too but it would seem slightly offtopic wrt bitcoin development
150 2014-02-11 02:34:25 <Luke-Jr> if we're not going to revert OP_RETURN, we should at least make it optional ; wumpus
151 2014-02-11 02:37:21 <gotnate> i probably don't have enough grasp on the inner workings of the bitcoin protocol, but: "OP_DATAPUSH4 can never be used" is that an operation that exists now that would be forbidden by this change?
152 2014-02-11 02:38:33 <lechuga_> well there r limits on script sizes
153 2014-02-11 02:38:45 <lechuga_> u shudnt ever need OP_DATAPUSH4 with current rules
154 2014-02-11 02:38:48 <gotnate> otherwise, https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 looks like a good long term change, but i wonder if it needs to be a priority (thanks gox)
155 2014-02-11 02:38:58 <lechuga_> since its used to push data which requires 4 bytes to represent its length
156 2014-02-11 02:39:01 <maaku> gotnate: there's nothing you can do with PUSHDATA4 that you can't do with PUSHDATA2 or is otherwise already invalid
157 2014-02-11 02:39:15 <gotnate> fair enough
158 2014-02-11 02:39:16 <lechuga_> if u need 4 bytes to represent its length
159 2014-02-11 02:39:16 <lianj> gotnate: no, its a long term thing
160 2014-02-11 02:39:18 <gotnate> so it's redundant anyway
161 2014-02-11 02:39:19 <lechuga_> its already too big :)
162 2014-02-11 02:39:52 <lechuga_> hes trying to avoid another case of mallebility wher eu use OP_PUSHDATA4 when it isnt necessary
163 2014-02-11 02:40:18 <gotnate> right, i understand now.
164 2014-02-11 02:40:29 <maaku> Luke-Jr: optional OP_RETURN?
165 2014-02-11 02:40:36 <todamoon> oops wrong chan again :/
166 2014-02-11 02:42:08 <gotnate> what i mean by priorities, is that i wonder if it is wise to let gox push priorities around like that
167 2014-02-11 02:42:23 <lechuga_> what do you mean
168 2014-02-11 02:42:44 <lechuga_> i think this incident has raised the priority in people's minds
169 2014-02-11 02:43:05 <gotnate> sec, my attention is divided. i need to undivide it and gather my thoughts
170 2014-02-11 02:43:44 <lechuga_> conceptually it isnt as big of an issue but in the real-world with real actors/devs of varying sophistication
171 2014-02-11 02:43:51 <lechuga_> it seems to matter a bit more than first assumed
172 2014-02-11 02:45:49 <maaku> gotnate: sipa's proposed changes may not close all malleability holes
173 2014-02-11 02:46:05 <gotnate> fair enough. i guess i haven't been paying enough to what the other priorities are. it does make sense to have some effect on priority, but i guess what i mean is i wonder if it is wise to rashly make it crash priority
174 2014-02-11 02:46:05 <lechuga_> what's missing?
175 2014-02-11 02:46:12 <gotnate> i agree that long term it needs to happen
176 2014-02-11 02:46:24 <lechuga_> gotnate: i dont think anyones pushing for the changes to get merged tonight
177 2014-02-11 02:46:24 <maaku> which makes gox's behavior silly and immature
178 2014-02-11 02:46:28 <gotnate> i think short term, people *SHOULD* learn the lesson from gox
179 2014-02-11 02:46:57 <gotnate> haha, lechuga_ the way i read it, it would be phased in based on mining votes
180 2014-02-11 02:47:28 <maaku> gotnate: no one is making it a crash priority. if anything we've been trying to make malleability an issue. doesn't excuse what happened though
181 2014-02-11 02:47:40 <lechuga_> it is a great learning opportunity for devs trying to create a web service
182 2014-02-11 02:47:48 <gotnate> exactly
183 2014-02-11 02:47:52 <lechuga_> im just afraid many of them cant see through the haze of carign about gox acting nutty
184 2014-02-11 02:48:16 <lechuga_> but hopefully a few actually pay attention to the details
185 2014-02-11 02:48:21 <lechuga_> i bet if you dropped sipa
186 2014-02-11 02:48:26 <lechuga_> 's bip proposal on reddit
187 2014-02-11 02:48:28 <lechuga_> itd just get lost
188 2014-02-11 02:48:45 <maaku> lechuga_: it hasn't been adequately shown yet if it is possible to algebraicly modify signatures
189 2014-02-11 02:48:54 <maaku> for example
190 2014-02-11 02:48:55 <lechuga_> oh right
191 2014-02-11 02:49:06 <lechuga_> the whack-a-mole reply from petertodd
192 2014-02-11 02:49:27 <lechuga_> im of the belief you may as well fix what u know about
193 2014-02-11 02:49:32 <maaku> right, this just covers the known holes that are known to be fixable
194 2014-02-11 02:49:36 <lechuga_> and if u coem to find out u dont know it all
195 2014-02-11 02:49:38 <lechuga_> well fix it again
196 2014-02-11 02:49:57 <maaku> but people should still assume transactions are malleable afterwards and act accordingly
197 2014-02-11 02:49:59 <gotnate> and then it becomes a microsoftian game of cat and mouse
198 2014-02-11 02:50:03 <lechuga_> maaku: thats fair
199 2014-02-11 02:50:16 <NeatBasis> it never seizes to amaze me how much silly people are. We've been laughing at mt.gox for such a long time now it's just insane how much they can still affect some people
200 2014-02-11 02:52:18 <lechuga_> maaku: in fact, i wonder if that should be explicitly called out int he BIP
201 2014-02-11 02:52:22 <NeatBasis> What I don't get is why did they implement a custom wallet instead of creating a layer between their trading platform and bitcoind
202 2014-02-11 02:52:32 <lechuga_> "pls continue to assume malleability, thx"
203 2014-02-11 02:52:41 <maaku> lechuga_: probably...
204 2014-02-11 02:53:22 <maaku> NeatBasis: that's what their custom wallet is...
205 2014-02-11 02:53:53 <gotnate> would it be possible to rename it from transaction ID to a term that makes it clear that it is not an identifier until it gets onto the blockchain
206 2014-02-11 02:54:14 <NeatBasis> It might be a big win for bitcoin if the malleability issue was dealt with quickly.
207 2014-02-11 02:54:45 <lechuga_> neatbasis: you cant build a scaleable web service with just bitcoind
208 2014-02-11 02:54:50 <gotnate> or even make the transaction ID non-existant until mined
209 2014-02-11 02:54:52 <NeatBasis> maaku: ok. And they can't even maintain that? wow
210 2014-02-11 02:55:07 <gotnate> i'm sure i'm showing my ignorance of the inner workings here
211 2014-02-11 02:55:27 <gotnate> but what is the transaction ID used for before it makes it onto a block?
212 2014-02-11 02:55:36 <maaku> gotnate: people shouldn't be using transaction ids
213 2014-02-11 02:55:37 <maaku> that's the issue
214 2014-02-11 02:56:00 <lechuga_> gotnate: well practically speaking
215 2014-02-11 02:56:01 <gotnate> maaku: and what i'm proposing is to take the transaction id away from the protocol entirely
216 2014-02-11 02:56:06 <lechuga_> walletnotify will give u "txids"
217 2014-02-11 02:56:14 <lechuga_> and if you want the details of one before its in the blockchain
218 2014-02-11 02:56:17 <lechuga_> u need to referenc eit somehow
219 2014-02-11 02:56:31 <maaku> gotnate: transactions are not matched by ID in the protocol
220 2014-02-11 02:56:40 <maaku> they are matched by inputs and outputs
221 2014-02-11 02:56:45 <maaku> bitcoind handles this correctly
222 2014-02-11 02:57:01 <NeatBasis> lechuga_ of course not, but it doesn't mean it can't be there somewhere and if there are updates to the protocol you could usually just update bitcoind (or bitcoind in plural)
223 2014-02-11 02:57:30 <lechuga_> transaction IDs are used by SPV impls
224 2014-02-11 02:57:45 <Luke-Jr> maaku: 0.9rc always mines/relays data spam, and cannot be told not to
225 2014-02-11 02:57:55 <money> hi
226 2014-02-11 02:58:15 <money> is it true that the you developers are going to program a fix for mtgox?
227 2014-02-11 02:58:26 <NeatBasis> txid has it's purpose, but it should not mean nothing until it's in a block
228 2014-02-11 02:58:29 <lechuga_> not unless they pay me
229 2014-02-11 02:58:36 <maaku> lechuga_: for transactions which have already made it on the chain
230 2014-02-11 02:58:39 <NeatBasis> sorry double negative fail
231 2014-02-11 02:59:15 <money> are you developing a fix for mtgox? about the mutations in the txid?
232 2014-02-11 02:59:37 <gotnate> NeatBasis: agreed. so make the mining node generate the txnids in the block it's building, rather than in the txn's passed in
233 2014-02-11 03:01:16 <lechuga_> sendtoaddress should be documented to return a "tentative" txid :)
234 2014-02-11 03:01:46 <lechuga_> where tenative is hyperlinked to the mallebility wiki entry
235 2014-02-11 03:02:42 <NeatBasis> gotnate sounds about right. but if you reeeally wanted the wallet to be able to generate the txid(it would be usefull) then it needs to be fixed in an other way
236 2014-02-11 03:03:54 <maaku> what do you guys mean by "generate the txid"?
237 2014-02-11 03:04:08 <lechuga_> compute the hash im assuming
238 2014-02-11 03:05:08 <maaku> a hash is the same no matter where you compute it...
239 2014-02-11 03:05:35 <lechuga_> wish i could edit the wiki
240 2014-02-11 03:05:50 <lechuga_> i bt updating 'sendtoaddress' would stop a nontrivial # of devs from making the same mistake
241 2014-02-11 03:05:53 <lechuga_> bet*
242 2014-02-11 03:06:03 <muhoo> this gist looks very solid from a layman's glance. https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 will mining software need to change?
243 2014-02-11 03:06:37 <lechuga_> cgminer/bfgminer shouldnt need to change
244 2014-02-11 03:07:15 <gotnate> the way i read it, the change would have to be in bitcoind (or whatever is feeding blocks to the miner)
245 2014-02-11 03:07:15 <NeatBasis> maaku whatever method it is that the txid is derived or created from
246 2014-02-11 03:07:43 <muhoo> oic, it uses bip34 for transitioning the network
247 2014-02-11 03:08:27 <maaku> NeatBasis: a transaction id is just the hash of the transaction; it doesn't matter when you calculate that hash; it doesn't change unless you explicitly mess with the transaction
248 2014-02-11 03:09:42 <gotnate> i'm sure this would be a hard fork, but what about signing the txnID and broadcasting that signature with the transaction? not sure if that 2nd sig would need to go in the block
249 2014-02-11 03:11:27 <maaku> gotnate: that's approaching from the wrong direction
250 2014-02-11 03:11:36 <lechuga_> whats to stop someone from signing the mutated txn
251 2014-02-11 03:11:41 <lechuga_> and who signs it
252 2014-02-11 03:11:42 <maaku> no one should care what actual transaction get selected
253 2014-02-11 03:12:05 <maaku> so long as one that is functionally identical does get on the chain
254 2014-02-11 03:12:08 <gotnate> lechuga_: sign it with one of the private keys for the inputs of course
255 2014-02-11 03:12:15 <lechuga_> which one
256 2014-02-11 03:12:22 <gotnate> i don't think that matters
257 2014-02-11 03:12:28 <gotnate> but if it does... the first one
258 2014-02-11 03:12:52 <lechuga_> ok how would you do that if the spender is broadcasting the txn
259 2014-02-11 03:13:32 <gotnate> right before the broadcast?
260 2014-02-11 03:13:49 <gotnate> or am i missing a detail?
261 2014-02-11 03:14:19 <NeatBasis> maaku thanks for stopping me there. I had it figured out wrong.
262 2014-02-11 03:14:43 <lechuga_> sorry what if it isnt the spender broadcasting the txn
263 2014-02-11 03:15:06 <NeatBasis> got it now.
264 2014-02-11 03:15:17 <gotnate> than the txnID would already be signed by the spender
265 2014-02-11 03:16:09 <gotnate> or is there a case where the txnID is generated, but the inputs aren't yet signed?
266 2014-02-11 03:16:41 <lechuga_> the inputs make up the txid
267 2014-02-11 03:17:34 <lechuga_> i think whats you have multiparty inputs things get weird with that approach
268 2014-02-11 03:17:43 <lechuga_> s/whats/when
269 2014-02-11 03:17:56 <gotnate> ah coinjoin
270 2014-02-11 03:18:06 <lechuga_> not just coinjoin
271 2014-02-11 03:18:25 <gotnate> you've convinced me, it's a bad idea
272 2014-02-11 03:18:42 <gotnate> i like my idea of no txnid's until mined better :p
273 2014-02-11 03:19:04 <NeatBasis> well at least the signatures should be canonicalized
274 2014-02-11 03:19:15 <lechuga_> u need some handle to work with txns that arent yet confirmed
275 2014-02-11 03:19:28 <lechuga_> it should just be emphasized that that handle can change
276 2014-02-11 03:19:50 <gotnate> rename txnID to txnHandle
277 2014-02-11 03:19:51 <gotnate> done
278 2014-02-11 03:20:20 <lechuga_> or refer to it as a tentative txnid or something to differentiate it
279 2014-02-11 03:20:38 <lechuga_> just a bit of semantics would rpobably help a bit here
280 2014-02-11 03:20:49 <lechuga_> i bet most devs look at the rpc list and thats it
281 2014-02-11 03:21:02 <lechuga_> 'oh ok i see how i could piece together a service'
282 2014-02-11 03:21:53 <lechuga_> 'it returns <txid> ahh wonderful, perfect thing to store, im done'
283 2014-02-11 03:22:30 <lechuga_> i mean thats almost certainly what gox did
284 2014-02-11 03:22:40 <gotnate> that does sound right
285 2014-02-11 03:22:48 <gotnate> sounds like what i would do
286 2014-02-11 03:22:51 <dexX7> +1
287 2014-02-11 03:22:53 <lechuga_> :)
288 2014-02-11 03:22:58 <gotnate> but i also wouldn't sit on it for 4 years once i find out about it
289 2014-02-11 03:23:16 <gotnate> 3 years
290 2014-02-11 03:23:28 <lechuga_> its easy to make that claim in hindsight
291 2014-02-11 03:23:32 <gotnate> ACTION continually proves his poor math skills
292 2014-02-11 03:24:12 <lechuga_> it doesnt open up doublespend potential so it isnt *that* scary
293 2014-02-11 03:24:27 <gotnate> so rename txnID to tentativeMutableTxnID
294 2014-02-11 03:24:31 <lechuga_> lol
295 2014-02-11 03:24:48 <lechuga_> i think making a minor change to the docs could help ya :)
296 2014-02-11 03:25:03 <gotnate> except for the dvelopers who don't read the docs
297 2014-02-11 03:26:20 <lechuga_> im sure most devs rely on this pretty heavily: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
298 2014-02-11 03:26:26 <lechuga_> unsure if u want to call that docs or not
299 2014-02-11 03:32:36 <petertodd> ;;cjs
300 2014-02-11 03:32:37 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: current session is open for 12 more minutes. There are currently something like 2 transactions in the pot. The most popular output value is 0.1. To participate, visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ .
301 2014-02-11 03:41:24 <Hrumph> hi once again i'm not a devel....i read somewhere that you can uniquely identify a transaction by looking at ouputs or something (whatever that means)......would it be reasonable to create a hash of that data that could be used to 99% identify a transaction?
302 2014-02-11 03:42:11 <Hrumph> that way when you want to match transactions you could first examine the hash
303 2014-02-11 03:42:19 <Hrumph> just like a with comparing files
304 2014-02-11 03:47:21 <maaku> Hrumph: you mean like this : https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e#diff-9c8594b107c5d10b42944ad46a2f1a76R82
305 2014-02-11 03:47:39 <gotnate> Hrumph: also a non dev here: the way i read it, the txnid is also generated from other operations on the state machine, which have an impact on the outputs. so in theory you could generate a transaction with different sets of ops but with the same inputs and get the same txnid
306 2014-02-11 03:48:02 <gotnate> i need to look into how the txnid is generated rather than speculate though
307 2014-02-11 03:50:11 <Hrumph> maaku: does this patch have anything to do with what mtgox is requesting?
308 2014-02-11 04:34:36 <lechuga_> is it possible attackers didnt actually mutate the txns
309 2014-02-11 04:34:41 <lechuga_> but miners wanted more entropy
310 2014-02-11 04:35:37 <gotnate> that's interesting speculation
311 2014-02-11 04:35:41 <lianj> lechuga_: not really
312 2014-02-11 04:35:47 <Luke-Jr> nonsensical speculation
313 2014-02-11 04:35:57 <Luke-Jr> probably the slowest source of entropy miners have lol
314 2014-02-11 04:36:03 <gotnate> i would expect a new block to be found before more entropy is needed though
315 2014-02-11 04:37:17 <lianj> the ones you can see on the blockchain right now all use OP_PUSHDATA2 instead of OP_PUSHDATA1. so it was mutated with intend.
316 2014-02-11 04:37:42 <gmaxwell> gotnate: no, you should expect the universe to end before miners need more entropy before they can get from the coinbase.
317 2014-02-11 04:37:45 <gotnate> lianj: can you link me to an example?
318 2014-02-11 04:38:21 <gotnate> gmaxwell: fair enough.
319 2014-02-11 04:39:04 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I wonder if it wouldn't help some folks if you'd just do a minor patch to block OP_PUSHDATA other than 1 in IsStandard.
320 2014-02-11 04:40:20 <lianj> gotnate: http://webbtc.com/tx/24ca2b7336fabba4de378a85d67af45de3efb20beb24820bd2c4f93b89ab9c5b.json
321 2014-02-11 04:40:30 <gotnate> lianj: thanks
322 2014-02-11 04:40:37 <lechuga_> seems like a nice targetted/harmless fix
323 2014-02-11 04:40:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't call IsStandard, so no :p
324 2014-02-11 04:40:56 <embm> so much schoolwork, that by the end of the day when I want to develop stuff for fun, I don't have the energy
325 2014-02-11 04:42:06 <lianj> gotnate: more, http://webbtc.com/tx/832e76aa3c3283a0d61eb75986e66c1907992599ba8aadaba86c507449d2a4e1
326 2014-02-11 04:42:29 <lechuga_> yeah i guess it actually doesnt give u much entropy at all really
327 2014-02-11 04:42:43 <lianj> those don't have evil origins necessarily, some miner(s) started to mutate other users txs just for fun
328 2014-02-11 04:43:00 <lechuga_> for fun?
329 2014-02-11 04:43:09 <gotnate> hmmm... how do you tell that it used OP_PUSHDATA2 here?
330 2014-02-11 04:43:24 <gotnate> or is there a document i can read to understand it myself?
331 2014-02-11 04:43:49 <gotnate> nm
332 2014-02-11 04:43:49 <gotnate> oh found the run script button
333 2014-02-11 04:44:17 <lianj> but the run script debug output doesn't show you which pushdata ;)
334 2014-02-11 04:44:34 <lechuga_> the 77 opcode in the front does
335 2014-02-11 04:44:59 <lianj> right, but thats just serialization specific to the library thats used on that site
336 2014-02-11 04:45:17 <lianj> there other way is to look at the binary itself
337 2014-02-11 04:45:20 <lianj> but yeaâ¦
338 2014-02-11 04:46:51 <lechuga_> i thought it was confirmed the attack was due to the DER format
339 2014-02-11 04:47:08 <lianj> someone should make stats how many OP_PUSHDATA2's in inputs where spotted some weeks ago and since 48 hours
340 2014-02-11 04:47:08 <petertodd> lechuga_: there's *lots* of sources of malleability that can be exploited
341 2014-02-11 04:47:24 <lechuga_> petertodd: yeah i read sipas bip proposal
342 2014-02-11 04:47:46 <lechuga_> has anyone scanned the blockchain using sipa's heuristics
343 2014-02-11 04:47:59 <lechuga_> to figure out roguh inceidence #
344 2014-02-11 04:48:05 <lechuga_> and period of high volume
345 2014-02-11 04:48:34 <petertodd> lechuga_: you'd get false positives there from implementations that produced "non-canonical" outputs
346 2014-02-11 04:48:53 <lechuga_> theyd honestly likely be noise id think
347 2014-02-11 04:49:15 <lechuga_> doesnt everyone use openssl
348 2014-02-11 04:49:27 <petertodd> not at all
349 2014-02-11 04:49:45 <lechuga_> whos going to handroll ecdsa
350 2014-02-11 04:50:00 <petertodd> javascript
351 2014-02-11 04:50:04 <lianj> ^
352 2014-02-11 04:50:11 <lechuga_> those clever bastards
353 2014-02-11 04:50:23 <petertodd> embedded things (trezor)
354 2014-02-11 04:50:27 <lianj> move your mouse in circles for best entropy
355 2014-02-11 04:51:58 <lechuga_> trezor doesn tuse openssl?
356 2014-02-11 04:52:05 <lechuga_> is it just too big or what
357 2014-02-11 04:52:15 <lechuga_> or i guess it has no OS
358 2014-02-11 04:52:16 <lechuga_> nm
359 2014-02-11 04:54:33 <lechuga_> scanning and counting would at least give us the change in frequency / magnitude
360 2014-02-11 04:54:45 <lechuga_> id assume all the custom impls have roiughly the same txn rate baseline
361 2014-02-11 04:55:06 <lechuga_> and theyre adopting isnt growing that rapidly
362 2014-02-11 04:55:08 <lechuga_> their
363 2014-02-11 04:55:10 <lechuga_> adoption*
364 2014-02-11 04:55:40 <lechuga_> i may as well do it
365 2014-02-11 04:59:38 <lianj> a sort look at least says its not only a single miner nor relay ip
366 2014-02-11 05:00:24 <lechuga_> true
367 2014-02-11 05:01:05 <lechuga_> how probable do u think it is that a miner was an attacker
368 2014-02-11 05:01:27 <gotnate> i think it's pretty improbable
369 2014-02-11 05:01:31 <lechuga_> seems like a waste of time
370 2014-02-11 05:01:54 <lechuga_> if you're big enough to operate a mining op
371 2014-02-11 05:02:51 <lechuga_> unless u werent trying to make money off gox but make money off mkt reaction
372 2014-02-11 05:02:56 <lechuga_> ACTION puts on tinfoil hat
373 2014-02-11 05:03:42 <lechuga_> would just seem counterproductive to your interests
374 2014-02-11 05:03:59 <lechuga_> unless its a rogue employee like when ghash did its doublespends
375 2014-02-11 05:07:00 <lianj> what attack are you even talking about? gox'd?
376 2014-02-11 05:45:04 <volante> is it normal that a randomly generated private key will often start with K? and J comes up a lot and occasionally a H, but nothing else?
377 2014-02-11 05:47:37 <lianj> volante: thats just the base58 encoding. so yes
378 2014-02-11 05:48:52 <volante> oh good. just making sure the nsa hasn't bugged my rng :p
379 2014-02-11 05:49:49 <lechuga_> volante: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format
380 2014-02-11 05:51:20 <volante> i see, so it's probably the 0x80 byte that skews the first base58 character
381 2014-02-11 05:54:04 <dkog> volante: those are "compressed" keys btw. "uncompressed" generally start with "5". the difference is not important, but just fyi.
382 2014-02-11 05:54:35 <dkog> well, some clients (mostly older) may not understand the compressed format, but it's the recommended format.
383 2014-02-11 05:55:41 <lianj> "compressed address" keys
384 2014-02-11 05:55:50 <volante> i'm using the format produced by vanitygen which starts with a 5
385 2014-02-11 05:56:15 <jcorgan> vanitygen only produces uncompressed pubkeys
386 2014-02-11 06:06:23 <dkog> lianj: are you saying that "compressed private key" is not proper terminology?
387 2014-02-11 06:14:05 <jcorgan> when there are two possible resulting addresses from privkey -> pubkey -> address, depending on whether the pubkey is stored in compressed or uncompressed format before hashing to an address
388 2014-02-11 06:14:37 <jcorgan> the private key can be stored in as a wallet import format in two different ways to indicate whether a compressed or uncompressed pubkey should be generated from it
389 2014-02-11 06:14:59 <jcorgan> vanitygen only produces uncompressed pubkeys and generates wallet import format private keys indicating that
390 2014-02-11 06:15:16 <jcorgan> remote the 'when' from my first statement
391 2014-02-11 06:15:24 <jcorgan> remove
392 2014-02-11 06:15:50 <jcorgan> (this is what i get for typing without looking)
393 2014-02-11 06:16:20 <mjb504> Hi all. A friend is receiving 0.00000001 BTC to his wallet at blockchain. Is this anything to worry about?
394 2014-02-11 06:25:53 <volante> are there any wallets implementing BIP32 yet? i mean not just generating a wallet, but actually viewing and sending transactions, like electrum
395 2014-02-11 06:26:22 <jcorgan> none that i am aware of. Electrum has the code written inside it already, but not turned on.
396 2014-02-11 06:27:20 <jcorgan> the BIP lists a number of implementations in different languages, but i think they are all pieces that would be used by wallet software for implementing BIP32, but not wallet software themselves
397 2014-02-11 06:27:21 <volante> the BIP says "Status: Accepted". does that mean it's finalised or still being developed?
398 2014-02-11 06:27:29 <jcorgan> bip32?
399 2014-02-11 06:27:39 <volante> yeah
400 2014-02-11 06:28:57 <jcorgan> hmm, well accepted, perhaps, but it has just undergone an important rewrite (changes terminology, not the actual key generation), which hasn't been merged in
401 2014-02-11 06:29:31 <jcorgan> i don't expect there to be any further changes in the actual key generation or serialization
402 2014-02-11 06:29:37 <jcorgan> but the terminology might change still
403 2014-02-11 07:59:15 <phillipsjk> I don't suppose anybody up at this hour has experience compiling Bitcoin on FreeBSD
404 2014-02-11 08:00:25 <Apocalyptic> heh, in fact I do
405 2014-02-11 08:00:49 <phillipsjk> ./autogen.sh complains: Can't exec "aclocal": No such file or directory
406 2014-02-11 08:00:57 <Apocalyptic> i used the ports on FreeBSD 8.1, without miniupnp, worked like a charm
407 2014-02-11 08:00:59 <wumpus> that one is easy: get aclocal
408 2014-02-11 08:01:09 <wumpus> usually part of an 'autotools' or 'autoconf' package
409 2014-02-11 08:01:13 <Apocalyptic> ^
410 2014-02-11 08:01:38 <phillipsjk> So I find it at /usr/local/share/aclocal, and add it to the path.
411 2014-02-11 08:02:03 <phillipsjk> turns out that is a directory, not a binary.
412 2014-02-11 08:02:35 <Apocalyptic> i expect a binary to be in something like /usr/local/bin
413 2014-02-11 08:02:45 <Apocalyptic> share looks more like a doc folder
414 2014-02-11 08:04:04 <phillipsjk> I installed "autoconf" which pulled in m4: 1.4.17,1, autoconf-wrapper: 20131203, autoconf: 2.69
415 2014-02-11 08:04:23 <phillipsjk> the share folder was full of m4 files
416 2014-02-11 08:04:47 <phillipsjk> Do you have to be root to compile?
417 2014-02-11 08:06:12 <phillipsjk> hmm, there is a separate autotools-20130627 package; I'll try installing that.
418 2014-02-11 08:06:48 <uiop> ACTION loves "yum provides '*bin/foo'"
419 2014-02-11 08:08:10 <phillipsjk> No new is good news so far..
420 2014-02-11 08:08:42 <phillipsjk> looks like it worked.
421 2014-02-11 08:09:22 <phillipsjk> It did not even complain about libboost missing. (Maybe it is in the base install)
422 2014-02-11 08:12:11 <phillipsjk> Oh, it complained in the ./configure step.
423 2014-02-11 08:16:32 <phillipsjk> ACTION found the boost package (no lib in name))
424 2014-02-11 08:21:26 <fanquake> ;;blocks
425 2014-02-11 08:21:27 <gribble> 285243
426 2014-02-11 08:22:56 <phillipsjk> configure: error: pkg-config not found. <-- nice when the error is almost plain English :)
427 2014-02-11 08:28:54 <phillipsjk> is libcfg-0.6.2_2 waht I want? (not to be confused with libconfig-1.4.9)
428 2014-02-11 08:31:25 <phillipsjk> development frameworks. It is similar to pkg-config, but was written from scratch in Summer of 2011 to replace pkg-config, which now needs itself to build itself." -- a third package looks even more promising
429 2014-02-11 08:31:25 <phillipsjk> "pkgconf is a program which helps to configure compiler and linker flags for
430 2014-02-11 08:42:36 <maaku> ;;google xkcd 927
431 2014-02-11 08:42:37 <gribble> xkcd: Standards: <https://xkcd.com/927/>; xkcd sucks: Comic 927: The Alternative Title Was "Things Randy ...: <http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2011/07/comic-927-alternative-title-was-things.html>; 927: Standards - explain xkcd: <http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/927:_Standards>
432 2014-02-11 08:43:17 <maaku> phillipsjk: you want pkg-config
433 2014-02-11 08:44:07 <phillipsjk> found a doc bug: --without-miniupnpc in the build instructions is listed as --with-miniupnpc
434 2014-02-11 08:45:05 <maaku> phillipsjk: do a pull request
435 2014-02-11 08:45:12 <phillipsjk> pkgconf seemed to work.
436 2014-02-11 08:48:00 <wumpus> phillipsjk: is that a doc bug? both --with- and --without- variants are valid but do the opposite
437 2014-02-11 08:48:11 <phillipsjk> spoke too soon? make: don't know how to make am--refresh. Stop
438 2014-02-11 08:48:25 <wumpus> providing neither of them uses the default
439 2014-02-11 08:48:37 <wumpus> (which may depend on your system)
440 2014-02-11 08:50:50 <phillipsjk> No, it is an error. There are two separate options for enabling UPNP: disabled by default and enabled by default.
441 2014-02-11 08:59:28 <wumpus> huh... okay
442 2014-02-11 09:10:49 <phillipsjk> maaku, pkgconf is supposed to be compatible with pkg-config. If Bitcoin manages to break it, the maintainer probably wants to know.
443 2014-02-11 11:02:58 <jeremias> Anybody knows what error message " Transaction commit failed" during sendmany means?
444 2014-02-11 11:03:53 <jeremias> and if a transaction fails with that error msg, can I be 100% sure that the transaction won't relay?
445 2014-02-11 11:13:14 <wumpus> jeremias: it usually means that the mempool didn't accept it, but you can check debug.log if there's more info there
446 2014-02-11 11:16:04 <jeremias> wumpus: so the transaction got created, but I guess it is not broadcasted?
447 2014-02-11 11:22:56 <jeremias> hmm, ok
448 2014-02-11 11:22:56 <wumpus> indeed, the likely reason it could not be broadcasted because it conflicts with a transaction currently in the mempool
449 2014-02-11 11:56:46 <chichov> does the transaction malleability problem also refer to "SIGHASH_ALL"?
450 2014-02-11 12:22:21 <Mallstromm> hi
451 2014-02-11 12:22:24 <Mallstromm> so... What's going on with all those mutated transactions?? My QT is flooded by unconfirmed transactions!!!
452 2014-02-11 12:24:15 <wumpus> Mallstromm: some nodes are mutating transactions on the network on purpose (making use of the mallability); this causes a visual annoyance, but doesn't affect your balance
453 2014-02-11 12:25:05 <Mallstromm> can't we know who is running those nodes?
454 2014-02-11 12:25:18 <wumpus> the next release will contain a (hopefully automatic) way to clean up that clutter
455 2014-02-11 12:26:14 <wumpus> well I suppose it would be possible to find out, but as this is something that everyone can do, it makes little sense to start a witchhunt
456 2014-02-11 12:39:46 <flound1129> does anyone have php code that actually works for sendmany?
457 2014-02-11 12:40:01 <flound1129> I've spent hours trying to get bitcoin.inc to do it
458 2014-02-11 12:40:17 <flound1129> for some reason it keeps stripping the amounts
459 2014-02-11 13:05:24 <davout> flound1129: show an example of what you're doing
460 2014-02-11 13:28:23 <flound1129> jesus
461 2014-02-11 13:28:26 <flound1129> this shit is so broken
462 2014-02-11 13:28:31 <flound1129> how do people develop in php
463 2014-02-11 13:28:32 <flound1129> it's awful
464 2014-02-11 13:28:43 <flound1129> nothing fucking works
465 2014-02-11 13:28:46 <davout> in lots of pain
466 2014-02-11 13:29:22 <flound1129> anyway here's what I'm doing:
467 2014-02-11 13:29:58 <Apocalyptic> <flound1129> how do people develop in php // serious people don't
468 2014-02-11 13:31:17 <flound1129> http://pastebin.com/cYkvqGrS