1 2014-03-07 01:12:46 <Elio19> Where is Gavin Andresen?
  2 2014-03-07 01:16:21 <dexX7> which hunt?
  3 2014-03-07 01:51:49 <diki> Hacked account? http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/SatoshiNakamoto
  4 2014-03-07 02:19:10 <LyndsySimon> I'm working on a streamlined library for working with cryptocoins in Python. Is this an appropriate channel to discuss it?
  5 2014-03-07 02:19:33 <antephialtic> yes
  6 2014-03-07 02:20:39 <LyndsySimon> Great :) It's still in its infancy, but it's coming along nicely now.
  7 2014-03-07 02:21:02 <LyndsySimon> Certainly not ready for release - the Readme isn't even accurate, and I've only barely scratched the features. https://github.com/lyndsysimon/cryptocoin
  8 2014-03-07 02:21:40 <LyndsySimon> The overall goal is to emulate Kenneth Reitz's "___ for Humans" style, a'la Requests.
  9 2014-03-07 02:22:25 <LyndsySimon> The first step is abstracting keypairs into a single object, whether you have only an address, a pubkey, etc. It'll respond with the informaiton it can derive from what it's instantiated with, and raise appropriate exceptions otherwise.
 10 2014-03-07 02:23:38 <LyndsySimon> I've got it working with passphrases and WIF-formatted private keys. Next is secret exponents/hex private keys, then I'll start on generating addresses, then message signing, then generating and signing transactions.
 11 2014-03-07 02:23:39 <LyndsySimon> Any input or advice is appreciated.
 12 2014-03-07 02:24:18 <jtimon_> so I'm basically stupid, I wasn't building bitcoin-qt and I had forgotten that I had it installed
 13 2014-03-07 02:24:42 <antephialtic> LyndsySimon: cool, have you looked at pycoin (https://github.com/richardkiss/pycoin)
 14 2014-03-07 02:24:46 <antephialtic> similar goals
 15 2014-03-07 02:27:59 <embicoin> Hello, I was studying a source code from an altcoin... I see that in their function:     BOOST_FOREACH(const CTxOut& txout, vout){
 16 2014-03-07 02:28:07 <embicoin> they forgot the curly bracket
 17 2014-03-07 02:28:16 <embicoin> { <
 18 2014-03-07 02:28:24 <embicoin> has it any consequence?
 19 2014-03-07 02:28:40 <LarsLarsen> embicoin: TELL THEM
 20 2014-03-07 02:28:49 <jtimon_> I'm getting "PROTOC not found; bitcoin-qt frontend will not be built" on ubuntu, I've already installed libprotoc-dev libprotobuf-dev and protobuf-c-compiler
 21 2014-03-07 02:28:49 <jtimon_> what else do I need?
 22 2014-03-07 02:29:34 <embicoin> LarsLarsen,  I did post it in their bitcointalk thread, I just wanted to ask if we can define such functions without curly brackets :P
 23 2014-03-07 02:29:56 <LarsLarsen> embicoin: without knowing the context,  its hard to say... but they would know.
 24 2014-03-07 02:30:23 <LarsLarsen> embi: what language?
 25 2014-03-07 02:30:27 <sipa> c++
 26 2014-03-07 02:30:30 <embicoin> I compared to other alt-coins main.cpp codes and every one
 27 2014-03-07 02:30:37 <jtimon_> embicoin only the first line in the loop will be repeated instead of everything that's between the brackets, it depends on where that is
 28 2014-03-07 02:30:37 <sipa> link?
 29 2014-03-07 02:30:40 <LarsLarsen> figures
 30 2014-03-07 02:30:41 <embicoin> has the curly brackets to define that function
 31 2014-03-07 02:30:57 <LarsLarsen> jtimon: exactly,  we need context
 32 2014-03-07 02:31:05 <embicoin> main.cpp line 322 :P I guess is the same for all alt-coins
 33 2014-03-07 02:31:21 <sipa> eh, no
 34 2014-03-07 02:31:22 <jtimon_> embicoin if they didn't also forgot the closing bracket the compiler should tell them
 35 2014-03-07 02:31:31 <sipa> link please?
 36 2014-03-07 02:33:10 <jtimon_> so what's PROTOC that's not in  libprotoc-dev libprotobuf-dev protobuf-c-compiler ? does anyone know?
 37 2014-03-07 02:33:42 <embicoin> https://github.com/usecredits/Credits/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L288
 38 2014-03-07 02:34:05 <embicoin> look the other boost_foreach functions, they all have the curly brackets
 39 2014-03-07 02:34:28 <jtimon_> no, it won't have consequences because there's only one thing
 40 2014-03-07 02:34:51 <embicoin> jtimon_,  ok thank you very much for the explanation
 41 2014-03-07 02:35:15 <sipa> embicoin: may i suggest first learning c++ ? :)
 42 2014-03-07 02:35:38 <jtimon_> embicoin boost loops work basically work the same way than regular for loops
 43 2014-03-07 02:36:03 <embicoin> sipa hehe I am trying to learn, meanwhile I like to study the source and compare it between coins
 44 2014-03-07 02:37:05 <LarsLarsen> embicoin: You just learned something!  :)
 45 2014-03-07 02:37:08 <jtimon_> embicoin probably a C++ tutorial is a better place to start than bitcoin's code, leave aside a random altcoin
 46 2014-03-07 02:37:31 <CodeShark> boost loops are all but unnecessary for std containers in C++11
 47 2014-03-07 02:37:43 <embicoin> I know some VBA and if I have some error in my syntax then the code does not work or it works in a wrong way
 48 2014-03-07 02:37:48 <CodeShark> so don't spend too much time focsing on them :)
 49 2014-03-07 02:37:52 <CodeShark> *focusing
 50 2014-03-07 02:38:00 <embicoin> boost libs are a whole new universe for me
 51 2014-03-07 02:38:04 <jtimon_> if you're completely new to programming I suggest "learn python the hard way"
 52 2014-03-07 02:39:39 <LarsLarsen> embicoin: codecademy.com is a great way to learn to program
 53 2014-03-07 02:40:39 <embicoin> Yeah hehe I am proudly using codeacademy :P but still on js training
 54 2014-03-07 02:41:09 <LarsLarsen> I shudder to think how many glaring bugs there are in altcoins with NOBODY looking at the source but the people who are butchering it.
 55 2014-03-07 02:41:16 <embicoin> well thanks guys for your answer and sorry for the offtopic, very kind from your part ;)
 56 2014-03-07 02:41:49 <LarsLarsen> so good for you embicoin,  keep up the good fight :)
 57 2014-03-07 02:42:29 <embicoin> I agree LarsLarsen almost nobody controls the alts code that sounds a little scary to me...
 58 2014-03-07 02:43:47 <LarsLarsen> its the cumulative error that I worry about,  their coin is based on another coin based on another coin...
 59 2014-03-07 02:43:54 <LarsLarsen> all the bugs adding up
 60 2014-03-07 02:44:34 <embicoin> LarsLarsen,  and the problem is that when a bug is solved and commited to the btc source the other coins based on 0.6.2 or so don't patch it...
 61 2014-03-07 02:44:53 <LarsLarsen> I know,  they have no real reason to
 62 2014-03-07 02:45:27 <LarsLarsen> by the time it becomes an issue for them,  they'll have either succeeded against all odds (moon!) or it will be moot
 63 2014-03-07 02:45:37 <LarsLarsen> in their eyes
 64 2014-03-07 02:46:06 <LarsLarsen> I bet merging is getting harder and harder too,  as they diverge
 65 2014-03-07 02:46:08 <jtimon_> ok, protobuf-compiler was the package I was missing
 66 2014-03-07 02:46:22 <embicoin> But well... you know... the most majority of alt-clones coming everyday are just pump and dump schemes...
 67 2014-03-07 02:46:33 <sipa> jtimon_: doesn't the documentatation mention that package?
 68 2014-03-07 02:46:53 <sipa> please guys can you take this altcoin talk elsewhere?
 69 2014-03-07 02:46:56 <LarsLarsen> I think they all are,  anyone can pump and dump your "honest" coin
 70 2014-03-07 02:47:11 <LarsLarsen> if I had an alt for testing some feature,  I'd do everything I could to keep it off exchanges
 71 2014-03-07 02:47:36 <LarsLarsen> sipa: sorry
 72 2014-03-07 02:48:14 <jtimon_> sipa I was reading doc/build-unix.md and it just says "protobuf", so wasn't sure what I needed from apt-cache search protobuf
 73 2014-03-07 02:48:32 <jtimon_> maybe in another part of the docs?
 74 2014-03-07 02:48:58 <sipa> jtimon_: feel free to fix
 75 2014-03-07 02:49:41 <jtimon_> ended up installing libprotoc-dev libprotobuf-dev protobuf-c-compiler protobuf-compiler, maybe that's too much
 76 2014-03-07 02:50:03 <rasmuzen> does anyone have experience writing a blockchain parser?
 77 2014-03-07 02:50:25 <rasmuzen> and would anyone find a node.js blockchain parser useful?
 78 2014-03-07 02:52:42 <jtimon_> sipa I just found additional instructions for qt below in the same file which include "    apt-get install libqt4-dev libprotobuf-dev protobuf-compiler" so it doesn't seem necessary to fix, I'm just blind or something
 79 2014-03-07 02:55:58 <sipa> ok :)
 80 2014-03-07 03:32:29 <frank1e> hey guys 1 quick question
 81 2014-03-07 03:32:49 <frank1e> When I have a BTC BIP38 encrypted wallet (created on a safe machine) I can store the pdf files generated by the Paper Wallet Generator without worries on an >unsafe< machine, right? (Because the private key is not useable without the BI38 Key, right?)
 82 2014-03-07 03:35:02 <frank1e> anyone may help? :-/ pretty basic question
 83 2014-03-07 03:37:54 <frank1e> mh....
 84 2014-03-07 03:38:07 <frank1e> no one in here that may help me with bip38??
 85 2014-03-07 04:14:37 <jtimon_> frank1e I don't know much about brain wallets and I've never used the paper wallet generator but it seems to me that if your private key is accesible you're at risk
 86 2014-03-07 04:15:55 <jtimon_> can't you just store that pdf private key where you have your bip38 key?
 87 2014-03-07 04:19:28 <radiator> Hi everyone , which part of the txIn contains the input transaction ID ? is it 32-bit hash in the OutPoint structure ?
 88 2014-03-07 04:19:56 <radiator> in relation to the transaction malleability problem
 89 2014-03-07 04:20:21 <frank1e> wait wait
 90 2014-03-07 04:20:55 <frank1e> jtimon_: I thought the BIP38 encryption would make the paperwallet immune against getting a private key stolen?
 91 2014-03-07 04:21:32 <frank1e> (I had no dumb printer, so I needed to broadcast the printing of the BIP38 Paper Wallets to my network printer with a unsafe machine anyway)
 92 2014-03-07 04:22:16 <jtimon_> if I'm not mistaken the bip38 key will allow you to generate the private key again, but if the private key contains funds, the bip38 root doesn't protect you in any way
 93 2014-03-07 04:22:39 <frank1e> wait is this true
 94 2014-03-07 04:23:05 <frank1e> someone told me that if my paper wallets get physically stolen, the thief couldnt do anything with it without the BIP38 password (if its a strong password)
 95 2014-03-07 04:23:19 <jcorgan> frank1e: your understanding is correct
 96 2014-03-07 04:23:23 <jtimon_> maybe you should try to generate it again from the bip38 key and if you're successful, you can safely delete the private key and just keep the bip38
 97 2014-03-07 04:23:49 <frank1e> Im new to this. But I read a bit about it. BIP38 is encryption via Scrypt, which is not bruteforceable because it would take too long for every password-try-and-error.
 98 2014-03-07 04:24:12 <jtimon_> ok, so, sorry, as said I don't know much about brain wallets
 99 2014-03-07 04:24:18 <frank1e> sweep? delete the private key? wait wait wait. Explain it like Im 5 please.
100 2014-03-07 04:24:29 <frank1e> I thought brainwallets are something completely different by the way?!
101 2014-03-07 04:25:08 <jcorgan> but (and this isn't bip38 specific), if you have btc parked in a paper wallet address, once you spend even part of it, you'll need to recreate the paper wallet with the new change address
102 2014-03-07 04:25:11 <frank1e> sweep = getting all coins out of a wallet by doing a transaction to another wallet. (>not< simply importing the whole wallet via privatekey, right?)
103 2014-03-07 04:25:19 <frank1e> yes sure.
104 2014-03-07 04:25:27 <frank1e> Im asking in a case of years of holding.
105 2014-03-07 04:25:34 <jcorgan> frank1e: yes, a brainwallet is different from a bip38 secured private key
106 2014-03-07 04:25:38 <frank1e> oaky
107 2014-03-07 04:25:40 <frank1e> okay
108 2014-03-07 04:25:43 <jtimon_> oh, sorry, brain wallets are bip39, my mistake
109 2014-03-07 04:26:28 <frank1e> so If a coinstealer managed to get my private keys from the pdfs while I printed the paperwallets via my network connection, the hacker couldnt simply use it.
110 2014-03-07 04:26:34 <jcorgan> jtimon_, no bip39 is not a brainwallet
111 2014-03-07 04:26:38 <frank1e> ----> which means I am safe
112 2014-03-07 04:27:16 <frank1e> right?
113 2014-03-07 04:27:27 <jcorgan> frank1e: if you generated your keypair offline, then generated a bip38 encrypted version of the private key, and only printed that out, then your private key was never exposed
114 2014-03-07 04:27:29 <frank1e> (I only use BIP38)
115 2014-03-07 04:27:38 <frank1e> :)
116 2014-03-07 04:27:38 <frank1e> okay
117 2014-03-07 04:27:49 <jtimon_> jcorgan no? aren't mnemonic for memorizing?
118 2014-03-07 04:27:52 <frank1e> so I am right with my newbish theory on that. cool! first success!
119 2014-03-07 04:28:18 <jcorgan> bip39 is a mnemonic algorithm for memorizing data, it doesn't have to be a brainwallet passphrase
120 2014-03-07 04:28:28 <frank1e> I only write BIP38 down on pieces of paper by hand. of course.
121 2014-03-07 04:28:50 <jtimon_> jcorgan I see, thanks for the clarification
122 2014-03-07 04:28:57 <eennaam> frank1e: i dont trust my own handwriting
123 2014-03-07 04:29:09 <eennaam> bought an oldfashioned typewriter
124 2014-03-07 04:29:40 <frank1e> My last concern is: The offline machine (without connected HDD or network cable) has been shutdown after pdfs are created. But what if the BIP38 keys are stored in the ram? How do I sweep it with an Ubuntu Live CD before connecting my HDD + Network cable again so I can continue working with Windows 7?
125 2014-03-07 04:30:11 <frank1e> eennaam: I checked all keys more than 4 times by hand. So thats all good. Just to avoid any mistakes.
126 2014-03-07 04:30:53 <frank1e> (if it helps for answering my question: The PDFs of the finished paper wallets have been transfered to a usb device for printing it out on an unsafe machine)
127 2014-03-07 04:31:37 <eennaam> frank1e: the offline machine isnt offline anymore?
128 2014-03-07 04:31:38 <jcorgan> i'm not sure what the time lapse should be to prevent cold boot recovery of ram contents
129 2014-03-07 04:31:56 <eennaam> frank1e: i would keep the offline machine offline, and move to my online machine
130 2014-03-07 04:31:59 <eennaam> also has its own ram
131 2014-03-07 04:32:00 <frank1e> eennaam: It still is offline and shut down.
132 2014-03-07 04:32:23 <eennaam> you want to continue working with windows offline ?
133 2014-03-07 04:32:39 <frank1e> eennaam: its a working machine so I need to get it back anyway. Is there a way to make sure I can safely go back to normal daily business with it? (Online with the HDD + Internet connection)
134 2014-03-07 04:32:44 <frank1e> no online
135 2014-03-07 04:33:17 <eennaam> well, i wouldnt take it online if you use it for your offline wallets
136 2014-03-07 04:33:26 <frank1e> there is no more wallet
137 2014-03-07 04:33:34 <eennaam> oh
138 2014-03-07 04:33:34 <frank1e> it has been generated with an ubuntu live cd
139 2014-03-07 04:33:47 <frank1e> thats why I didnt even had any HDD plugged in at all.
140 2014-03-07 04:33:51 <frank1e> To be 100% sure...
141 2014-03-07 04:34:25 <eennaam> you can be sure if you take out the power and leave it like that for a while , ram memory will be gone, depends how paranoid you are tho
142 2014-03-07 04:34:25 <frank1e> I'm afraid that todays viruses can catch BIP38 Keys from the ram on my next Windows 7 boot or something via Network. So I need to know if I need to clean it and how. First time guys.. sorry...
143 2014-03-07 04:34:34 <frank1e> very paranoid :p
144 2014-03-07 04:34:42 <frank1e> okay doing that now
145 2014-03-07 04:35:18 <jcorgan> there is indeed a decay rate for RAM and an amount of time you should wait based on that, but i don't know what it is
146 2014-03-07 04:35:19 <frank1e> done
147 2014-03-07 04:35:30 <frank1e> mh :|
148 2014-03-07 04:35:50 <jcorgan> likely minutes, but i'm just guessing
149 2014-03-07 04:36:04 <frank1e> Im extending that by a few hours :3
150 2014-03-07 04:36:13 <frank1e> I am a very paranoid guy with these things...
151 2014-03-07 04:36:20 <eennaam> frank1e: cant you replace the ram?
152 2014-03-07 04:36:29 <frank1e> eennaam: sadly no
153 2014-03-07 04:36:31 <jcorgan> heh, now that's paranoid
154 2014-03-07 04:36:53 <eennaam> :)
155 2014-03-07 04:37:13 <frank1e> I even switched from a bluetooth keyboard to a regular wired one.
156 2014-03-07 04:37:16 <frank1e> Not trusting anything.
157 2014-03-07 04:37:45 <frank1e> :p
158 2014-03-07 04:37:48 <jcorgan> btw, if you are familiar with ubuntu live dvds, i have a set of scripts that let you convert one to one having full disk encryption (using LUKS) and requiring a passphrase on boot to mount the root filesystem with decryption on the fly.
159 2014-03-07 04:38:09 <eennaam> have you opened it to check there is no hardware keylogger inside?
160 2014-03-07 04:38:16 <frank1e> There is none
161 2014-03-07 04:38:22 <eennaam> good
162 2014-03-07 04:38:27 <frank1e> its a pretty basic system anyways
163 2014-03-07 04:38:32 <frank1e> wait
164 2014-03-07 04:38:36 <frank1e> hardware logger, where
165 2014-03-07 04:38:46 <eennaam> inside your keyboard
166 2014-03-07 04:39:05 <eennaam> sometimes it is on the usb connector
167 2014-03-07 04:39:19 <frank1e> I guess no
168 2014-03-07 04:39:38 <frank1e> Its not a noname thingy. Didnt open that, but Thats one that I trust ;)
169 2014-03-07 04:39:54 <eennaam> im just trying you to screw open your hardware
170 2014-03-07 04:40:00 <frank1e> :p
171 2014-03-07 04:40:02 <eennaam> sorry about that
172 2014-03-07 04:40:10 <frank1e> HW keyloggers are easy to spot anyway
173 2014-03-07 04:40:37 <frank1e> As far as I know. (I know these oldschool hardware loggers. nO idea if they changed within the years in size)
174 2014-03-07 04:41:02 <eennaam> you know those alien ones from the future with secret alien technology
175 2014-03-07 04:41:07 <frank1e> :P
176 2014-03-07 04:41:36 <frank1e> jcorgan: Thanks for the offer! I am experimenting with full disk encryption soon anyway. (The classic way with TC)
177 2014-03-07 04:41:52 <frank1e> (For OS X, Win & Ubuntu / Debian)
178 2014-03-07 04:43:13 <jcorgan> TC doesn't apply to live DVDs.  Take a look at http://github.com/jmcorgan/cryptubuntu
179 2014-03-07 04:43:41 <jcorgan> It's a way of remastering a live ISO image so that it contains a LUKS encrypted root filesystem instead
180 2014-03-07 04:43:42 <frank1e> Yes
181 2014-03-07 04:43:48 <frank1e> I mean for HDDs
182 2014-03-07 04:43:52 <frank1e> and local servers
183 2014-03-07 04:44:08 <frank1e> I dont use livecds that much, so I wont need that I think
184 2014-03-07 04:44:13 <frank1e> :))
185 2014-03-07 04:44:42 <frank1e> But bookmarking that link to give it a try and ask a few buddies what they think about that some day.
186 2014-03-07 04:44:43 <frank1e> thank you
187 2014-03-07 04:45:49 <frank1e> Are there any stolen coin reports from BIP38 paper wallets which where proper created anyway?
188 2014-03-07 04:45:55 <frank1e> Didn't see one.
189 2014-03-07 04:46:31 <jcorgan> it's useful for creating cold storage "wallets" that are actually a full OS, bitcoin software, and keys, making recovery very simple.  And since they are encrypted, there is little risk from losing them.
190 2014-03-07 04:46:46 <frank1e> Ah, I see
191 2014-03-07 04:47:03 <frank1e> For cold storage with real wallets I might stick to the simple armory solution
192 2014-03-07 04:47:16 <frank1e> with 2 machines, 1 offline and 1 online for broadcasting a transaction.
193 2014-03-07 04:47:41 <frank1e> gotta play around with armory anyway soon. everyone says its perfect.
194 2014-03-07 04:48:03 <jcorgan> Armory is nice, if resource intensive, and requires a bitcoind and full blockchain for operation.
195 2014-03-07 04:48:26 <frank1e> thats not the problem
196 2014-03-07 04:48:52 <frank1e> I have a brand new fully wiped HDD now that I am going to use with armory for the safe machine
197 2014-03-07 04:48:52 <jcorgan> but it is indeed a very nice wallet package
198 2014-03-07 04:49:07 <PRab> I use Armory as my primary wallet. It is good but not perfect.
199 2014-03-07 04:49:18 <frank1e> I heard _way_ too many reports of lost transactions with all those lightweight wallet clients
200 2014-03-07 04:49:34 <eennaam> why have it wiped if it is brand new
201 2014-03-07 04:50:02 <frank1e> because
202 2014-03-07 04:50:08 <eennaam> 
ACTION has m-disc burner 

203 2014-03-07 04:50:11 <frank1e> no idea
204 2014-03-07 04:50:19 <frank1e> for the feeling :p
205 2014-03-07 04:50:24 <LarsLarsen> frank1e: have you used a bootable tails dvd/USB before?
206 2014-03-07 04:53:37 <frank1e> (i never know if a "brand new" hdd was returned from the customer before me...so)
207 2014-03-07 04:53:56 <frank1e> LarsLarsen tails? No. Heard of it, but didnt had time to mess around with that
208 2014-03-07 04:54:22 <jcorgan> eennaam: i may have to look into that
209 2014-03-07 04:55:07 <LarsLarsen> frankie: its by the tor project.  Its a secure (hopefully) system that only connects to the internet via tor (or not at all) and doesn't save any data,  it wipes ram when yuo're done,  etc.
210 2014-03-07 04:55:13 <eennaam> i still have to get some m-discs to burn
211 2014-03-07 04:55:33 <jcorgan> $4/ea. on the website
212 2014-03-07 04:55:47 <LarsLarsen> frankie: I generate my keys on the same computer,  by booting a tails DVD,  generating and printing keys,  and then moving the watching-only wallet and any signed transactions I make over to my windows with a USB drive
213 2014-03-07 04:56:19 <frank1e> mmmh sounds nice
214 2014-03-07 04:56:31 <eennaam> 2.99 on ebay
215 2014-03-07 04:56:31 <frank1e> keeping tails in mind to try that out too sometime :) thanks
216 2014-03-07 04:56:32 <LarsLarsen> you can also use USB to boot tails,  it wont save any changes you make to its filesystem even if the media is RW
217 2014-03-07 04:56:48 <frank1e> guys you have no idea how much you are teaching me in here right now :3
218 2014-03-07 04:57:34 <LarsLarsen> frank1e: Unless you own a faraday cage,  there isn't much point in owning a dedicated air-gap computer
219 2014-03-07 04:58:36 <gmaxwell> LarsLarsen: I don't agree, it's much too easy to firmware persist on targeted systems.
220 2014-03-07 04:58:48 <frank1e> LarsLarsen: Define "air-gap" more in detail please. Is the thing with viruses that spread from 1 machine to another via internal speakers really true? Has it been proven that any coins have been targeted and stolen by this technique? Just wondering
221 2014-03-07 04:58:53 <LarsLarsen> gmaxwell: true,  bios rootkits are scary
222 2014-03-07 04:59:16 <gmaxwell> all this discussion, fwiw should be in #bitcoin
223 2014-03-07 04:59:17 <LarsLarsen> gmaxwell: maybe I need a faraday cage... :)
224 2014-03-07 04:59:46 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: #bitcoin is now dedicated to paranoid rants about SN or Newsweek :(
225 2014-03-07 04:59:53 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: then ban people
226 2014-03-07 04:59:56 <gmaxwell> you haz the power.
227 2014-03-07 05:00:19 <jcorgan> but it makes me feel dirty inside :)
228 2014-03-07 05:00:41 <jcorgan> and not in a good way
229 2014-03-07 05:00:49 <gmaxwell> well you can pull a #bitcoin-pricetalk and direct people into some other channel.
230 2014-03-07 05:01:17 <gmaxwell> But really, when its inhibiting other conversation and driving it into #-dev thats when it's clearly okay to do something. :)
231 2014-03-07 05:01:26 <jcorgan> sure
232 2014-03-07 05:01:28 <LarsLarsen> there are some hilarious bitcoin-gtfo channels :)
233 2014-03-07 05:01:49 <frank1e> huh whats going on
234 2014-03-07 05:02:04 <LarsLarsen> frank1e: join #bitcoin
235 2014-03-07 05:02:17 <LarsLarsen> frank1e: more people will be able to help you there,  its awesome,  go try
236 2014-03-07 05:02:22 <frank1e> Im sorry
237 2014-03-07 05:02:26 <LarsLarsen> np
238 2014-03-07 05:02:29 <frank1e> Yes tried there earlier. No responds at all.
239 2014-03-07 05:02:37 <LarsLarsen> try again,  we're in there
240 2014-03-07 05:02:39 <frank1e> Anyway, all questions answered. Thanks so much :)
241 2014-03-07 05:02:49 <LarsLarsen> there have been netsplits,  so be patient,  if nobody answers,  ask again
242 2014-03-07 05:02:54 <jcorgan> let us know how it all works out (in #bitcoin)
243 2014-03-07 05:02:56 <frank1e> oh okay
244 2014-03-07 05:55:32 <ryan-c> jcorgan: Can you please unban me from #bitcoin? Those URLs were just links to the newsweek article via shadyurl, and not actually malicious. Failed attempt at humor.
245 2014-03-07 09:26:48 <TD> good morning
246 2014-03-07 09:29:05 <sipa> infidels
247 2014-03-07 09:29:21 <TD> i'm charmed, as always
248 2014-03-07 10:04:29 <jtimon_> why does testnet has checkpoints at all?
249 2014-03-07 10:05:51 <sipa> jtimon_: to protect the tests embedded in it
250 2014-03-07 10:06:11 <sipa> the first blocks of testnet contain a toncof weird transactions
251 2014-03-07 10:06:27 <jtimon_> ahm
252 2014-03-07 10:11:27 <jtimon_> thanks sipa, #include "main.h" in checkpoints.cpp...shouldn't it be in checkpoints.h ?
253 2014-03-07 10:14:00 <sipa> what in checkpoints.h depends on main.h?
254 2014-03-07 10:21:36 <jtimon_> yeah, nothing
255 2014-03-07 10:23:04 <jtimon_> I'm just use to only include stuff on the .h and in the .cpp include only its corresponding .h
256 2014-03-07 10:23:17 <jtimon_> used
257 2014-03-07 10:27:53 <sipa> that leads to slower compilation
258 2014-03-07 10:28:02 <sipa> but there are reasons for it indeed
259 2014-03-07 10:28:09 <sipa> it makes module dependencies more obvious
260 2014-03-07 10:41:49 <raistlinthewiz> hi there guys, just wanted to give a quick headsup on our current combined effort for developing a new .net/mono based mining pool software that targets the most-known mining protocols
261 2014-03-07 10:42:14 <raistlinthewiz> contributors are welcome: https://github.com/CoiniumServ/coinium
262 2014-03-07 10:42:22 <SomeoneWeird> good luck getting pools to use it
263 2014-03-07 10:42:37 <c0rw1n> you should start you own pool running it
264 2014-03-07 10:42:45 <c0rw1n> always better to have more pools
265 2014-03-07 10:42:53 <raistlinthewiz> we have some alt-coin operator guys that are looking for it
266 2014-03-07 10:44:57 <SomeoneWeird> they /want/ to run a .net based pool?
267 2014-03-07 10:45:00 <SomeoneWeird> hoookay then
268 2014-03-07 10:45:02 <raistlinthewiz> and .net is not our main target but mono is
269 2014-03-07 10:45:02 <raistlinthewiz> why not when python ones exists?
270 2014-03-07 10:46:43 <SomeoneWeird> because you don't have to run an emulation layer to run python software
271 2014-03-07 10:46:50 <SomeoneWeird> heh
272 2014-03-07 10:47:34 <raistlinthewiz> which is the exactly the same case with mono
273 2014-03-07 10:51:55 <raistlinthewiz> http://www.mono-project.com/AOT
274 2014-03-07 10:53:12 <SomeoneWeird> ok yes, if you're targeting mono
275 2014-03-07 10:53:16 <SomeoneWeird> .NET != mono
276 2014-03-07 10:54:27 <raistlinthewiz> yes :) i already stated that our main target is mono :)
277 2014-03-07 10:54:40 <Logicwax> [10:50] <TD> somebody i never heard of signed my pgp key
278 2014-03-07 10:54:40 <Logicwax> [10:51] <gmaxwell> It happens.
279 2014-03-07 10:54:43 <Logicwax> huh!!?!?
280 2014-03-07 10:56:04 <SomeoneWeird> raistlinthewiz, no, you stated .net/mono, which are entirely different things
281 2014-03-07 10:56:12 <TD> Logicwax: anyone can sign anyone elses key
282 2014-03-07 10:56:23 <raistlinthewiz> > 12:44:52 <raistlinthewiz> and .net is not our main target but mono is
283 2014-03-07 10:56:53 <SomeoneWeird> raistlinthewiz, I missed that :)
284 2014-03-07 10:56:59 <raistlinthewiz> :)
285 2014-03-07 10:57:41 <Logicwax> TD: i hope you dont mean, that anyone can sign something with someone elses key....as that would imply they have taken your private key
286 2014-03-07 10:57:47 <TD> no
287 2014-03-07 10:58:05 <TD> signing WITH vs just "signing" - there's a difference
288 2014-03-07 10:58:14 <TD> pgp lets people sign each others keys as a mark of trust
289 2014-03-07 10:58:20 <TD> that's not the case as signing WITH each others keys
290 2014-03-07 10:59:05 <raistlinthewiz> we have basic networking stuff covered and a very primitive implementation of getwork protocol
291 2014-03-07 11:01:04 <Logicwax> TD: oh yeah, now i get what you mean
292 2014-03-07 11:05:18 <veke> work|hello all can someone please confirm that every 1000bytes i've to pay 0.0001 BTC as tx fee?
293 2014-03-07 11:05:33 <veke> work|so that if the tx has a size of 2k 0.0002 BTC
294 2014-03-07 11:33:34 <raistlinthewiz> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Special:BitcoinPayment mm page returns an error for me
295 2014-03-07 11:36:48 <michagogo> cloud|veke|work: That is the default minimum fee for a transaction to not be considered free in Bitcoin Core, yes.
296 2014-03-07 11:37:09 <michagogo> cloud|raistlinthewiz: see topic in #bitcoin-wiki
297 2014-03-07 11:38:26 <arioBarzan_> Has anyone important in the community made any comment on the authenticity of Satoshi's recent post on p2pfoundation forum?
298 2014-03-07 11:39:22 <raistlinthewiz> thanks michagogo|cloud
299 2014-03-07 11:39:39 <gdbz> arioBarzan_: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zs8fi/i_am_nicolas_mendoza_from_p2p_foundation_we_are/
300 2014-03-07 11:44:08 <gavinandresen> Good morning everybody
301 2014-03-07 11:46:59 <shadders> howdy
302 2014-03-07 11:47:24 <shadders> gavinandresen: been harrassed by media today?
303 2014-03-07 11:47:37 <gavinandresen> No, I'm in a secret lair.
304 2014-03-07 11:48:10 <shadders> ahh... no free lunch for you then
305 2014-03-07 11:49:45 <gavinandresen> hmm?  lunch is free, it comes with our Bitcoin Workshop registration: http://fc14.ifca.ai/bitcoin/index.html
306 2014-03-07 11:50:35 <raistlinthewiz> can anyone one link satoshi's post? i've msised it
307 2014-03-07 11:51:19 <shadders> http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/SatoshiNakamoto
308 2014-03-07 11:53:41 <t7> the satoshi that was found could have posted that :P
309 2014-03-07 11:54:28 <gmaxwell> #bitcoin-satoshispeculation for that stuff... :)
310 2014-03-07 11:57:02 <shadders> I've been out of bitcoin world for a long time.  Poolserverj ceased to be useful since stratum (I think it was called) effectively made it obsolete.  So pretty much from stratum onwards I'm not up to date with the inner workings on mining pools... but...
311 2014-03-07 11:57:21 <shadders> that's a disclaimer in case this idea is bonkers...
312 2014-03-07 11:58:17 <shadders> I've been musing about the problem of mining pool concentration and the power it gives pools to effect protocol changes, choose transactions etc in a centralized manner.
313 2014-03-07 11:59:24 <shadders> For the mining pool to give miners the desired benefit and for the pool to get it's reward for providing the service.  The only thing that really needs to be centralised is the payout address of the coinbase.
314 2014-03-07 12:01:15 <shadders> If mining were rejigged a little bit such that the pool provides the payout address and miners construct blocks themselves.  Then there's no central control of how a block is formed yes?  To prevent the pool controlling it by rejecting blocks that don't fit it's criteria the miner submits the block directly
315 2014-03-07 12:02:01 <shadders> The pool still get the generated coins for distribution, the miners still get the benefit of smoothing their returns.
316 2014-03-07 12:04:41 <shadders> I guess to validate the miner would have to send the entire block to the pool for verification of shares.  But it could send many solutions to a single block.
317 2014-03-07 12:06:16 <shadders> Or if we are only concerned about miners being able choose transactions themselves then they could just send a list of tx hashes which would give the pool enough info to reconstruct the block itself?
318 2014-03-07 12:07:08 <gmaxwell> shadders: search logs here for "coinbase only mining"
319 2014-03-07 12:07:24 <gmaxwell> been proposed. would work great, needs software work and someone willing to deploy it.
320 2014-03-07 12:07:44 <gmaxwell> p2pool is effectively that already, but with a complex decenteralized scheme for computing the required coinbase.
321 2014-03-07 12:12:00 <shadders> any link to proposal?  I guess rather than rewriting all the miner clients there could be a local agent built for constructing blocks.  You just send the coinbase from the pool to it and it sends back the block (or header) to the miner to work on.  Then of course you need a compatible pool server.
322 2014-03-07 12:12:21 <shadders> sorry... missed your reference
323 2014-03-07 12:12:31 <shadders> to "coinbase only mining"... will search
324 2014-03-07 12:12:40 <gmaxwell> bfgminer darn near has support for it already in that it can already collect to a local bitcoind and submit blocks there, just doesn't have code to merge work from a pool and locally.
325 2014-03-07 12:13:10 <gmaxwell> there would need to be that, plus protocol extensions for the pool to specify that you're allowed to do this.
326 2014-03-07 12:14:20 <shadders> I probably need to read up on stratum... I'm really way behind... and I've probably forgotten half of what I knew about it the last time I committed code (a couple of years)
327 2014-03-07 12:20:54 <The_Fly> jgarzik: https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=510 this is a brilliant writeup, thanks for this.
328 2014-03-07 12:28:12 <sipa> jgarzik: i have to agree with The_Fly, nicely written
329 2014-03-07 12:30:20 <jgarzik> Thanks; trying to dispel the Cult of Satoshi
330 2014-03-07 12:30:31 <shadders> gmaxwell: Have you considered the traffic implications (bitcoin protocol traffic I mean).  If a lot of miners aren't running full nodes then the blockbuilder agent would have to listen on the network for transactions.  This would strain the full nodes somewhat I would think?
331 2014-03-07 12:30:58 <michagogo> cloud|14:13:10 <@gmaxwell> there would need to be that, plus protocol extensions for the pool to specify that you're allowed to do this. <-- Hmm? I thought we already had that in GBT?
332 2014-03-07 12:31:02 <shadders> jgarzik: He's NOT the messiah... He's a very naughty boy
333 2014-03-07 12:31:39 <shadders> michagogo|cloud: sorry what's GBT?  As I said I've been absent for quite a long time.
334 2014-03-07 12:31:46 <michagogo> cloud|getblocktemplate
335 2014-03-07 12:32:38 <sipa> obviously, http://abstrusegoose.com/509 is the real truth
336 2014-03-07 12:32:39 <veke> work|michagogo|cloud, I was more wondering if they sum up like at 1000bytes i pay 0.0001 at 2000 0.0002 - 3000bytes => 0.0003 etc
337 2014-03-07 12:32:47 <sipa> veke|work: yes
338 2014-03-07 12:33:01 <sipa> veke|work: but the fee is not a protocol rule
339 2014-03-07 12:33:13 <sipa> veke|work: it's just a policy, and configurable
340 2014-03-07 12:33:28 <sipa> if you set it too low, you risk creating a transaction that does not relay
341 2014-03-07 12:35:03 <veke> work|kk thanks sipa :)
342 2014-03-07 12:35:51 <shadders> michagogo|cloud: I think he's talking about the extensions to the mining protocol
343 2014-03-07 12:39:55 <michagogo> cloud|shadders: gbt is a mining protocol
344 2014-03-07 12:42:44 <shadders> oh I thought it was part of the bitcoin rpc interface... my bad...
345 2014-03-07 12:43:48 <sipa> shadders: yes, that too
346 2014-03-07 12:43:57 <sipa> bitcoind implements GBT through its RPC interface
347 2014-03-07 12:44:52 <shadders> thanks sipa... I have regressed to noob apparently :)
348 2014-03-07 13:02:11 <TD> huh wow. an actual time travelling debugger
349 2014-03-07 13:02:30 <gmaxwell> TD: reversable debugging is <#
350 2014-03-07 13:02:31 <gmaxwell> er <3
351 2014-03-07 13:02:36 <sipa> ?
352 2014-03-07 13:02:56 <TD> i was looking at what's new in intellij 13.1 and found this
353 2014-03-07 13:02:57 <TD> http://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2014/03/try-chronon-debugger-with-intellij-idea-13-1-eap/
354 2014-03-07 13:03:47 <TD> it's exactly what you'd imagine. IDE integrated recording of app runs, that lets you step forward, backward, see history of all method calls or variables for the entire execution run, so you can step through, rewind, add logging statements to dump extra data from the trace, etc
355 2014-03-07 13:03:58 <TD> i'd heard of attempts to build these things but didn't realise they were commercially viable
356 2014-03-07 13:05:21 <shadders> I can imagine it would guzzle masses of memory
357 2014-03-07 13:05:43 <shadders> hi TD btw... long time no speak
358 2014-03-07 13:05:44 <sipa> java already assumes infinite memory anyway </troll>
359 2014-03-07 13:05:52 <shadders> lol
360 2014-03-07 13:05:56 <TD> pretty much :) you have to tell it which classes to instrument