1 2014-03-14 00:00:50 <tiago> Found my problem. Wasn't running gitian as root, so there was a permission denied error from kvm
2 2014-03-14 00:01:36 <softwaremechanic> I'm working through how multisig transactions are supposed to work. Is there a canonical implementation that folks are using?
3 2014-03-14 00:04:58 <jakov> raw transactions on bitcoind i guess, for multisig
4 2014-03-14 00:05:42 <shesek> softwaremechanic, you also have some web interfaces, see multisig.info, ms-brainwallet.org and coinb.in/multisig
5 2014-03-14 00:06:10 <shesek> there's also bitrated.com, which is an interface specifically for the purpose of 2-of-3 multi-signature transactions for arbitration services
6 2014-03-14 00:06:22 <softwaremechanic> cool, lots of good info
7 2014-03-14 00:06:38 <softwaremechanic> The web services will be good to validate against
8 2014-03-14 00:09:11 <jakov> im glad more people are getting interested in multisig
9 2014-03-14 00:12:15 <softwaremechanic> It's a neat protocol, but takes some study to figure out.
10 2014-03-14 00:18:28 <tiago> bitcoin is a lot more flexible than it looks like at the first look, stuff like multisig makes it much more useful
11 2014-03-14 00:23:27 <cfields> wumpus: around?
12 2014-03-14 00:56:19 <Cryptoid870> l
13 2014-03-14 01:36:34 <CheckDavid> Hey
14 2014-03-14 01:36:39 <CheckDavid> https://github.com/casascius/Bitcoin-Address-Utility
15 2014-03-14 01:37:03 <CheckDavid> This repository includes a brain wallet function
16 2014-03-14 01:37:24 <CheckDavid> But I am not sir how to find it or use it
17 2014-03-14 01:37:39 <SomeoneWeird> as i've said, multiple times, you need to compile it.
18 2014-03-14 01:37:46 <CheckDavid> I am a coding noob I admit
19 2014-03-14 01:38:03 <SomeoneWeird> what OS are you running?
20 2014-03-14 01:38:13 <CheckDavid> SomeoneWeird: thanks for your input. I have never really compiled anything
21 2014-03-14 01:39:49 <SomeoneWeird> what OS are you running?
22 2014-03-14 01:39:58 <CheckDavid> SomeoneWeird: android
23 2014-03-14 01:40:05 <SomeoneWeird> uhh
24 2014-03-14 01:40:12 <SomeoneWeird> what?
25 2014-03-14 01:41:05 <CheckDavid> SomeoneWeird: am I helpless?
26 2014-03-14 01:41:09 <CheckDavid> Lol
27 2014-03-14 01:41:21 <SomeoneWeird> you're booting an x86 android image?
28 2014-03-14 01:41:33 <SomeoneWeird> are you using osx, linux, windows etc?
29 2014-03-14 01:41:49 <CheckDavid> No. I am just using an unroofed nexus 5 with latest android
30 2014-03-14 01:42:02 <CheckDavid> Unrooted
31 2014-03-14 01:42:27 <CheckDavid> But I would really like to have the brain wallet part of the code
32 2014-03-14 01:42:32 <SomeoneWeird> i'm so confused
33 2014-03-14 01:42:34 <CheckDavid> To learn, treat and use
34 2014-03-14 01:42:41 <SomeoneWeird> this is on your phone?
35 2014-03-14 01:42:46 <CheckDavid> * test
36 2014-03-14 01:42:48 <SomeoneWeird> what OS are you running on your computer
37 2014-03-14 01:43:18 <CheckDavid> SomeoneWeird: I don't have another digital device right now unfortunately
38 2014-03-14 01:43:30 <SomeoneWeird> oh.
39 2014-03-14 01:43:35 <SomeoneWeird> then you're out of luck
40 2014-03-14 01:43:44 <CheckDavid> SomeoneWeird: I see
41 2014-03-14 01:43:51 <CheckDavid> That's ok
42 2014-03-14 01:44:54 <CheckDavid> SomeoneWeird: I am more interested in having the brain wallet code
43 2014-03-14 01:45:11 <SomeoneWeird> to do what with?
44 2014-03-14 01:45:31 <CheckDavid> In a way that I could run it on android or on an online interpretee/console
45 2014-03-14 01:45:56 <SomeoneWeird> well, you can't
46 2014-03-14 01:46:03 <SomeoneWeird> that code is not written for android
47 2014-03-14 01:46:10 <CheckDavid> SomeoneWeird: to learn, test and maybe even repurpose for my own use
48 2014-03-14 01:46:46 <CheckDavid> I see SomeoneWeird . thanks for the information
49 2014-03-14 01:50:23 <CheckDavid> SomeoneWeird: you think it would be possible to have a script that does basically what a brain wallet does?
50 2014-03-14 01:52:43 <CheckDavid> Is it available anywhere? Maybe I should code it myself by reading the wiki? :p
51 2014-03-14 01:59:33 <B0g4r7> I've got a dumb question: why does bitcoin-qt require my wallet passphrase to add a new address to the wallet?
52 2014-03-14 01:59:54 <Imbue> B0g4r7: I believe it generates a new address to add to the keypool
53 2014-03-14 02:00:15 <Imbue> the address you get is precomputed, but one is tacked on to ensure there are 100 (or specified) remaining
54 2014-03-14 02:00:17 <B0g4r7> Yes, but why does it require the passphrase?
55 2014-03-14 02:00:19 <Imbue> this must be encrypted
56 2014-03-14 02:00:45 <Imbue> otherwise you have an unencrypted key lying around :)
57 2014-03-14 02:00:50 <B0g4r7> So the encryption uses a symmetric-style cipher then, not a public/private-key style?
58 2014-03-14 02:00:55 <Imbue> yes
59 2014-03-14 02:01:04 <B0g4r7> OK.
60 2014-03-14 02:01:08 <B0g4r7> Thx.
61 2014-03-14 02:01:25 <Imbue> to my knowledge aes256 is used
62 2014-03-14 02:02:28 <Imbue> B0g4r7: similarly, when you encrypt your wallet
63 2014-03-14 02:02:51 <Imbue> i believe unused keys are marked as used, and new ones are generated and immediately encrypted
64 2014-03-14 02:03:51 <Imbue> another explanation could be that the client checks that it actually has a valid private key for the new address generated (requiring decryption to check)... i'm not entirely sure
65 2014-03-14 02:03:53 <B0g4r7> I'm trying to add a bunch of new addresses, and it gets tedious typing that each time.
66 2014-03-14 02:04:10 <B0g4r7> I guess I should use the API.
67 2014-03-14 02:04:12 <Imbue> you could unlock the wallet for a set period of time in debug console, should work
68 2014-03-14 02:04:23 <Imbue> walletpassphrase 'keygoeshere' 60 (keeps it open for 60 seconds)
69 2014-03-14 02:04:33 <B0g4r7> Oh, hm, I'll have to try that.
70 2014-03-14 02:05:54 <Imbue> walletlock will lock the wallet once you are done, useful for paranoia purposes
71 2014-03-14 04:08:22 <wumpus> oh gawd they've brought the unit shedpainting discussion to github
72 2014-03-14 04:09:02 <wumpus> can we just agree not to agree
73 2014-03-14 05:17:15 <bazi> Hi
74 2014-03-14 05:17:35 <bazi> I had a doubt in how alfacahier exchange works
75 2014-03-14 05:18:04 <bazi> please I want to develop an Ecurrency Exchange
76 2014-03-14 05:19:38 <bazi> Is anyone to help?
77 2014-03-14 08:35:46 <wumpus> UGH, that github issue is now top story on reddit /r/bitcoin
78 2014-03-14 08:38:44 <gmaxwell> some of the activity in github has been really difficult to deal with lately.
79 2014-03-14 08:41:23 <wumpus> I wish actual pulls got that many (useful) replies from testers and reviewers and such :p
80 2014-03-14 08:42:01 <gmaxwell> I liked the +1 and then you asked if they'd tested it and they said they didn't want to download the blockchain. Doh.
81 2014-03-14 08:42:21 <wumpus> hehe
82 2014-03-14 08:42:36 <ThomasZ> separates the men from the boys ;)
83 2014-03-14 08:44:24 <ThomasZ> ontopic; I'm using mbtc on the qt client, I'm not sure I'd like micro.
84 2014-03-14 08:45:09 <Luke-Jr> ROFL\
85 2014-03-14 08:49:59 <wumpus> I liked the pi-decimal system suggestion
86 2014-03-14 09:12:03 <olalonde> hola
87 2014-03-14 09:15:15 <gmaxwell> wumpus: and as the noise continues on with that pull request... I'm thinking "and meanwhile, dogecoin is in the process of deploying a hardfork which radically changes the subsidy and overall coin supply, and the fact that the change was being made is only mentioned kinda indirectly in their release comments, and none of their users care"
88 2014-03-14 09:16:22 <kadoban> hah
89 2014-03-14 09:21:41 <wumpus> gmaxwell: probably they're too busy having fun and posting dog memes to notice
90 2014-03-14 09:22:55 <the_2nd> such forks, much cryptomess
91 2014-03-14 09:23:41 <wumpus> though you could probably sneak a change like that into bitcoin while everyone is distracted by the important question of how many decimals to show :p
92 2014-03-14 09:25:12 <gmaxwell> ACTION coughs https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3842
93 2014-03-14 09:25:33 <gmaxwell> (what, the supply of bitcoins isn't really stupposted start tending to infinite a few hundred years from now? :P )
94 2014-03-14 09:25:52 <kinlo> I do think it shows the power of the developpers
95 2014-03-14 09:26:41 <gmaxwell> kinlo: nah, that shit wouldn't work in bitcoin.
96 2014-03-14 09:26:50 <gmaxwell> in spite of my cyinical whining.
97 2014-03-14 09:27:44 <wumpus> no, it won't, I was just kidding
98 2014-03-14 09:28:10 <Apocalyptic> maybe we should left shift after the 64th halving
99 2014-03-14 09:29:26 <wumpus> or use a circular shift
100 2014-03-14 09:29:55 <gmaxwell> well on x86 with gcc today the shift by 64 there does nothing.
101 2014-03-14 09:30:20 <gmaxwell> meaning that the subsidy will jump back to 50. Amusingly, fixing it is just a soft-form in any case, since subsidy can be less. :)
102 2014-03-14 09:30:28 <gmaxwell> er soft-fork.
103 2014-03-14 09:30:47 <wumpus> could also just add an assert() if we don't want to decide it for the people in 200 years
104 2014-03-14 09:31:29 <gmaxwell> I don't think they'd really want the sudden jump back to 50 even if they wanted something different in any case. But yea an assert() //Holy shit, you're still running this? wtf is wrong with you. :P
105 2014-03-14 09:31:35 <wumpus> on the other hand it may create some y2k like issue, the 64th halving, the end of everything! :p
106 2014-03-14 09:31:47 <kinlo> gmaxwell: because in bitcoin someone would yell
107 2014-03-14 09:32:18 <kinlo> but if you manage to keep the changes so that noobody yells loud enough
108 2014-03-14 09:38:30 <TD> hmm
109 2014-03-14 09:38:37 <TD> >> is undefined for a >64 bit shift?
110 2014-03-14 09:38:45 <wumpus> yes
111 2014-03-14 09:38:50 <TD> huh
112 2014-03-14 09:38:55 <TD> i thought it was defined to give zero
113 2014-03-14 09:39:09 <wumpus> in general: a shift larger or equal than the bit size of the type
114 2014-03-14 09:39:19 <wumpus> rightshift for negative values is also undefined
115 2014-03-14 09:39:27 <wumpus> (in C/C++, dunno about Java)
116 2014-03-14 09:40:23 <TD> in practice on x86 it would compile down to SHR, which would just fill everything with zeros, right
117 2014-03-14 09:41:24 <wumpus> I think it wraps around in case of x64 (so a shift by 64 is a shift by 0)
118 2014-03-14 09:42:11 <kadoban> does it really? that's pretty gross
119 2014-03-14 09:42:58 <TD> i don't think amd64 would redefine the meaning of something as basic as SHR. there's a ROR operation if you want it to wrap around
120 2014-03-14 09:43:25 <wumpus> nonono it doesn't wrap the bits around
121 2014-03-14 09:43:46 <wumpus> just the right shift amount is modulo 64
122 2014-03-14 09:43:48 <TD> oh
123 2014-03-14 09:44:33 <wumpus> in any case it is undefined, which is very scary in C, the compiler is allowed to do everything, including optimizing away the code completely
124 2014-03-14 09:45:22 <TD> yeah
125 2014-03-14 09:51:07 <wumpus> C is really a minefield in some ways
126 2014-03-14 09:51:47 <gmaxwell> The world is a minefield. :)
127 2014-03-14 09:52:47 <wumpus> right
128 2014-03-14 09:55:02 <TD> i watched a very cool talk once. it was called "java puzzlers" and it covers, i think, 26 bizarre or undefined behaviours in java that can explode in your face
129 2014-03-14 09:55:41 <TD> so by the end of course you're thinking, huh, it's not so much better than c++. but then bloch says, ok, that's it. we searched high and low for these and think we got them all. given the size of the thing, that's pretty good.
130 2014-03-14 09:56:05 <TD> you can actually fit the entire language specification in your head and not be surprised by anything, in theory
131 2014-03-14 09:56:54 <TD> sipa: i'm seeing that 0.9.0rc3 is having trouble syncing on my test machines
132 2014-03-14 09:57:21 <TD> sipa: lots of "already have block" messages. i know this can happen sometimes normally but it seems more frequent now
133 2014-03-14 09:57:26 <TD> also
134 2014-03-14 09:57:27 <TD> 2014-03-14 09:56:54 ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK 145, prev=0000000000000000864ddf520c0b406708b93165d99f5e265d39c5dc9b7ac54b
135 2014-03-14 09:57:37 <TD> etc. with orphan count going up with each block
136 2014-03-14 09:58:57 <wumpus> it's pretty common to pick up chains of orphans during the initial sync
137 2014-03-14 09:59:24 <wumpus> at least the number of them stored in memory is now bounded
138 2014-03-14 09:59:56 <TD> didn't used to happen so much, it feels like
139 2014-03-14 10:05:03 <vegard> yeah, I'm still syncing and it happened at least twice so far. when the block connecting the orphans finally comes in, it can take cs_main lock for 35+ minutes while it waits for all the orphans to be connected
140 2014-03-14 10:09:35 <vegard> I find that it's a lot faster to do initial sync with -maxconnections=1 though it's probably unsafe in theory :-/
141 2014-03-14 10:23:08 <sturles> vegard: *If* you are lucky. If you are unlucky and hit a node on some slow home ADSL line, downloading 18 GB of data may take days.
142 2014-03-14 10:25:11 <t7> it should give you a magnet link to a bit torrent version :D
143 2014-03-14 10:25:29 <t7> automatically package a new torrent every x blocks
144 2014-03-14 10:25:38 <aschildbach> I sometimes get requests to add the sign message feature to Bitcoin Wallet. Its mostly miners who want to change their mining pool payout settings and need to sign some authorization token. I wonder how that usecase can work with an HD-only wallet. If users don't see any addresses, how can they know what key they need to sign with? Is that key available, or has it perhaps "rolled out the window"? Are there any plans for a different
145 2014-03-14 10:25:38 <aschildbach> signing protocol that uses keys only once?
146 2014-03-14 10:30:46 <michagogo> cloud|aschildbach: well, you need an address to give to Eligius in the first place
147 2014-03-14 10:54:25 <vegard> sturles: I think I'm limited by the speed of the verification anyway :-/ my datadir is a cifs share on another machine, so verification is pretty slow.
148 2014-03-14 10:54:26 <aschildbach> michagogo|cloud: And after that? Guess they'll re-use that address for some time?
149 2014-03-14 10:57:18 <michagogo> cloud|aschildbach: right now, Eligius doesn't have any concept of registration
150 2014-03-14 10:57:36 <michagogo> cloud|You just start your miner with an address as the username
151 2014-03-14 10:58:23 <TD> aschildbach: that use case would be hard to support with a sane UI, for sure
152 2014-03-14 10:59:06 <TD> aschildbach: addresses need to disappear to some extent. for mining pools that authenticate users exclusively by their private key, it might be better to just let users export a private key for an address, and then use an external tool to do this. but really the whole idea of doing that is kind of bogus :)
153 2014-03-14 10:59:16 <TD> they're just reinventing SSL client certs, badly
154 2014-03-14 11:50:01 <koriander22> hi there
155 2014-03-14 11:50:27 <koriander22> can anyone tell me what happens if the last block is found ?
156 2014-03-14 11:50:59 <koriander22> how do we confirm transactions when no more blocks are found ?
157 2014-03-14 11:51:24 <PRab> koriander22: there is no last block
158 2014-03-14 11:51:35 <koriander22> shure there is
159 2014-03-14 11:51:46 <PRab> even once the block reward goes to 0, you can still mine blocks
160 2014-03-14 11:52:23 <Bunnyh> if there really is a last block, it means btc failed and nobody cares anymore
161 2014-03-14 11:52:37 <koriander22> thats what i thought...
162 2014-03-14 11:52:41 <the_2nd> koriander22, said there's a last block, so there is
163 2014-03-14 12:07:10 <wumpus> the last block, when the mining hardware is so powerful it will generate the hash 0*64 every time?
164 2014-03-14 12:10:08 <vegard> well, I guess it's theoretically unproven that there even exists _any_ input for which the sha256 hash has, say, 88 leading 0s
165 2014-03-14 12:10:51 <vegard> (88 bits, that is)
166 2014-03-14 12:11:49 <wumpus> ey yes that should be 0*256 :)
167 2014-03-14 12:15:01 <wumpus> vegard: right, the only way to prove that is probably by giving an example (if there was another way to prove it, could it be used for shortcutting mining?)
168 2014-03-14 13:14:06 <ilovebitcoinfr> hi
169 2014-03-14 13:15:05 <ilovebitcoinfr> I have a simple newbie question for you gentlemen. Where do I find the line of code which deals with coinbase maturation setting?
170 2014-03-14 13:17:42 <ilovebitcoinfr> ok i found out doing a simple search in github sorry for the silly question: static const int COINBASE_MATURITY = 100; in main.h
171 2014-03-14 13:19:21 <michagogo> cloud|ilovebitcoinfr: Keep in mind, that's the protocol rule
172 2014-03-14 13:19:41 <michagogo> cloud|Not the wallet rule used when picking outputs to spend
173 2014-03-14 13:22:01 <nezZario> in light of endless discussions on the dev mailing list and github about default display unit could somebody write up a straw poll to get a "real" community census?
174 2014-03-14 13:22:08 <nezZario> i'm just tired of seeing it at this point
175 2014-03-14 13:22:39 <nezZario> some sample questions i wrote last night half asleep: http://pastebin.com/aTPQsXSb
176 2014-03-14 13:22:55 <nezZario> i'll hand write it or find a service that's reputable if there is any interest
177 2014-03-14 13:23:09 <nezZario> if that occurs would like feedback / ideas for the Q's..
178 2014-03-14 13:26:01 <olalonde1> hey guys.. i just released some tools related to "solvency" proof schemes. see http://syskall.com/blind-liability-proof/
179 2014-03-14 13:26:05 <olalonde1> feedback welcome
180 2014-03-14 13:26:07 <comboy> nezZario: there are some up down arrows here http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/20dasw/switch_all_units_to_microbtc_by_default_issue/ but I think the reference client would possibly be in a much worse shape than it is now if development would be driven by community polls
181 2014-03-14 13:26:29 <epscy> i agree
182 2014-03-14 13:26:29 <jgarzik> indeed
183 2014-03-14 13:26:29 <wumpus> it's pretty much a red herring, we're not going to switch default units before muBTC gains wider adoption in the ecosystem
184 2014-03-14 13:26:45 <jgarzik> wumpus, it's a chicken-and-egg
185 2014-03-14 13:26:58 <wumpus> no, it's not... mBTC is used all over the place now and we never used it as default
186 2014-03-14 13:27:15 <nezZario> comboy: not saying it should be community driven but it sure would be nice have that data for the 500 reddit,ML,github posts that refer to "consensus"
187 2014-03-14 13:27:24 <michagogo> cloud|nezZario: http://strawpoll.me/1311316
188 2014-03-14 13:27:26 <nezZario> just a suggestion
189 2014-03-14 13:27:37 <wumpus> sites can start recomminding to use muBTC, all other wallets need to support it as option, exchanges need to support it as option
190 2014-03-14 13:27:45 <wumpus> before we can even think about changing the default
191 2014-03-14 13:27:58 <nezZario> i always liked jcorgan's idea for the record.. ;)
192 2014-03-14 13:28:21 <michagogo> cloud|http://strawpoll.me/1311319
193 2014-03-14 13:29:01 <michagogo> cloud|http://strawpoll.me/1311322
194 2014-03-14 13:30:47 <wumpus> another option would be to get all/most wallet authors, exchanges, blockchain.info etc to agree on a switch date, but I somehow don't see that happening
195 2014-03-14 13:31:24 <epscy> i don't think the satoshi client should change anything
196 2014-03-14 13:31:36 <epscy> add them as user configurable options perhaps
197 2014-03-14 13:31:42 <wumpus> even the Armory author had second thoughts
198 2014-03-14 13:31:51 <wumpus> epscy: it has been a user configurable option since day one of Bitcoin-Qt
199 2014-03-14 13:32:20 <epscy> oh?, I don't use QT so i didn't know that
200 2014-03-14 13:32:46 <nezZario> well, a real close count of conesus would be nice is all i'm saying
201 2014-03-14 13:32:47 <wumpus> too many people are talking about this without even *using* the software
202 2014-03-14 13:33:39 <nezZario> jgarzik's original ml post that started it all back up even referred to "it sounded like the consensus was uBTC"
203 2014-03-14 13:33:46 <nezZario> (i'm assuming that's you jgarzik)
204 2014-03-14 13:34:48 <jgarzik> wumpus, the github got linked on reddit. Things degenerated from there...
205 2014-03-14 13:35:14 <epscy> the whole thing is a distraction
206 2014-03-14 13:35:18 <wumpus> yes that was/is the consensus, but nothing happened after that and many sites and wallets switched to mBTC instead
207 2014-03-14 13:35:38 <wumpus> everyone should add muBTC as option first
208 2014-03-14 13:36:17 <wumpus> epscy: yep!
209 2014-03-14 13:38:17 <comboy> is there any doc describing how bitcoind leveldb storage is organized?
210 2014-03-14 13:39:45 <michagogo> cloud|comboy: Yes, but it's written in C++
211 2014-03-14 13:40:13 <comboy> michagogo|cloud: right... ;)
212 2014-03-14 13:41:00 <hearn> a few years ago, i used to wonder if maybe transactions should have a "vote" for the number of decimal places we should be using attached to it
213 2014-03-14 13:41:15 <hearn> and then votes would be ranked according to coins spent, or something like that. and when there was enough votes to change, all software would switch simultaneously
214 2014-03-14 13:41:52 <wumpus> OP_RETURN <BTC|mBTC|uBTC> :p
215 2014-03-14 13:42:10 <hearn> ideally bitcoind would have RPCs for formatting of values, as would every other library, and then software could just rely on the system to decide how to write prices
216 2014-03-14 13:42:25 <hearn> but of course a lot of prices are written by hand and aren't dynamic. so i stopped thinking about it there
217 2014-03-14 13:43:00 <wumpus> I don't think moving part of the presentation layer into bitcoind is very desireable
218 2014-03-14 13:44:31 <jgarzik> I've always thought bitcoind RPC should be satoshis only, zero decimals
219 2014-03-14 13:44:45 <jgarzik> We see bugs aplenty arising from floating point use for financial software
220 2014-03-14 13:44:57 <jgarzik> *used
221 2014-03-14 13:47:20 <ThomasZ> jgarzik: having exactly one way btc-amounts when talking over rpc is for sure the best way to write a reliable platform. Any engineer should agree to that :)
222 2014-03-14 13:49:34 <comboy> ThomasZ: I think most json parsers will automatically build float objects for all amounts, which seems to be a bad start
223 2014-03-14 13:50:25 <ThomasZ> heh, yeah. I had to work with google protocol buffers today and saw; 103.125 printed as 103.12499999999
224 2014-03-14 13:51:48 <ThomasZ> btw, donno if he is on irc; thanks fly to wladimir (vdlaan) for approving my little merge request :)
225 2014-03-14 13:52:36 <hearn> ThomasZ: protobufs lets you represent numbers as ints, so not sure how that happened ...
226 2014-03-14 13:52:44 <hearn> ThomasZ: unless the field was defined to be a double of course :)
227 2014-03-14 13:52:48 <ThomasZ> it was
228 2014-03-14 13:53:09 <jgarzik> comboy, JSON and JavaScript both suck at math
229 2014-03-14 13:53:18 <jgarzik> which is amusing, because computers, typically, do not suck at math.
230 2014-03-14 13:58:26 <hearn> i'm not sure why people like JSON
231 2014-03-14 13:58:33 <hearn> it seems to have so many issues for such a basic thing
232 2014-03-14 13:58:46 <hearn> representing all numbers as floats seems particularly egregious
233 2014-03-14 14:00:49 <comboy> hearn: what would you choose for rpc (apart from protobufs ;)?
234 2014-03-14 14:01:09 <michagogo> cloud|ThomasZ: Wladimir is laanwj on github, and wumpus here
235 2014-03-14 14:01:32 <hearn> protobufs
236 2014-03-14 14:01:33 <ThomasZ> thanks
237 2014-03-14 14:01:34 <michagogo> cloud|(it took me way too long to realize that...)
238 2014-03-14 14:01:39 <wumpus> jgarzik: satoshis as string, then
239 2014-03-14 14:01:41 <hearn> i mean, we're talking about data serialization
240 2014-03-14 14:01:59 <hearn> there aren't many ways to do it properly. protobufs is not perfect but it's the least-worst solution i've seen
241 2014-03-14 14:02:17 <ThomasZ> wumpus: thanks for approving my merge request, my first commit in bitcoin ;)
242 2014-03-14 14:02:31 <jgarzik> hearn, "representing all numbers as floats" <<-- implementation detail, not spec requirement
243 2014-03-14 14:02:51 <hearn> i thought it was a spec requirement? because JSON is based on Javascript which only has one type of number
244 2014-03-14 14:02:59 <hearn> or did they decide JSON isn't really javascript anymore
245 2014-03-14 14:03:04 <wumpus> hearn: well some JSON parsers allow overriding number parsing
246 2014-03-14 14:03:08 <jgarzik> the latter
247 2014-03-14 14:03:13 <jgarzik> wumpus, s/some/most/
248 2014-03-14 14:03:16 <wumpus> for example, Python's, but not all do
249 2014-03-14 14:03:28 <wumpus> it'd be better to simply use strings
250 2014-03-14 14:03:47 <hearn> according to the wiki it's always floats, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON#Data_types.2C_syntax_and_example
251 2014-03-14 14:04:02 <jgarzik> wumpus, practically speaking, considering all implementations... yes.
252 2014-03-14 14:04:38 <jgarzik> http://json.org/
253 2014-03-14 14:05:52 <hearn> jgarzik: according to that site "number" is also defined as being floats
254 2014-03-14 14:06:00 <hearn> well, whatever. doesn't really matter
255 2014-03-14 14:06:04 <hearn> i mean, it does, for finance
256 2014-03-14 14:06:09 <hearn> but i don't really care :)
257 2014-03-14 14:08:36 <wumpus> at least with the current bitcoind RPC implementation (which uses doubles internally for amounts temporarily in a conversion step) I've seen reports of +/- 1 satoshi results , could be client side or server side problem, but at least when using strings and parsing immediately to integer it'd be possible to rule out such problems at our side
258 2014-03-14 14:09:08 <wumpus> that was my idea behind https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3759
259 2014-03-14 14:09:30 <hearn> yeah the API needs to change to use ints, that seems like asking for trouble
260 2014-03-14 14:09:52 <jgarzik> wumpus, indeed x2
261 2014-03-14 14:10:33 <jgarzik> wumpus, Though if we are going to do a major RPC redo as discussed, I would lean towards ditching -rpcamount in favor of satoshis-as-strings.
262 2014-03-14 14:10:40 <jgarzik> Just One Way
263 2014-03-14 14:12:20 <dexx> http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide << this is pretty cool
264 2014-03-14 14:12:32 <wumpus> yes one way seems more elegant, it's almost like design by committee now
265 2014-03-14 14:13:22 <wumpus> then again removing modes is easy as I've implemented them all four...
266 2014-03-14 14:27:28 <wumpus> ThomasZ: congrats :) I had to cherry-pick this one manually because it was targeted at 0.9.0 branch instead of master; usually it's the other way around, we merge pulls into master then backport them to 0.9.0
267 2014-03-14 14:27:54 <ThomasZ> wumpus: ah, I didn't realize that. Sorry for staging it for the wrong branch!
268 2014-03-14 14:28:07 <ThomasZ> I'll keep it in mind if I have any more commits
269 2014-03-14 14:28:46 <wumpus> unless it's release notes updates, you can only direct them at the version branch as master's release notes are a version ahead
270 2014-03-14 14:56:46 <radiator> Hi guys. Is coinjoin going to be integrated into bitcoin protocol in the future ?
271 2014-03-14 15:01:52 <helo> i think it will always be out-of-band
272 2014-03-14 15:11:18 <arubi> does anyone know if wallet.dat's location and name have changed since v0.3.22 ?
273 2014-03-14 15:11:28 <arubi> on a windows system *
274 2014-03-14 15:12:32 <arubi> the wiki only has info fo 0.8 and up
275 2014-03-14 15:14:50 <kjj> should be the same. I'm not positive because my windows novelty ancient node isn't quite that old
276 2014-03-14 15:16:02 <arubi> alright then. into the pile of old hard drives I go.
277 2014-03-14 15:16:34 <kjj> your old drives, or are you hoping for abandoned wallets in old drives that you've picked up from elsewhere?
278 2014-03-14 15:17:18 <arubi> mine. I'm not holding my breath though
279 2014-03-14 15:17:41 <arubi> there should be about 4 btc in there somewhere, if I haven't overwritten them
280 2014-03-14 15:17:50 <kjj> if you are looking for a large wallet, it may be wise to use pywallet's full disk scan
281 2014-03-14 15:18:35 <arubi> good idea.. I was going to use regular recovery software
282 2014-03-14 15:24:52 <dhill> gmaxwell around?
283 2014-03-14 15:41:18 <michagogo> cloud|arubi: yeah, there are tools specifically for finding privkeys
284 2014-03-14 15:41:22 <sipa> morning
285 2014-03-14 15:41:52 <arubi> michagogo|cloud, is there anything other than pywallet? hi sipa
286 2014-03-14 15:45:25 <michagogo> cloud|arubi: I've seen a few on bct
287 2014-03-14 15:46:03 <arubi> thanks, I'll search there
288 2014-03-14 15:57:42 <sipa> dexx: who wrote that? looks very nice
289 2014-03-14 15:57:53 <dexx> i don't know, found it on reddit
290 2014-03-14 15:57:58 <nezZario> good lord
291 2014-03-14 15:58:27 <nezZario> nobody cares about multisig or anything useful, but god forbid we bring up the ubtc vs mbtc discussion, suddenly everybody has a very strong opinion
292 2014-03-14 15:58:42 <nezZario> needing multisig or better client support? meh, it can wait, let's get those units switched
293 2014-03-14 15:59:12 <kjj> you complaining that people were using the mailing list as an instant messaging client yesterday?
294 2014-03-14 15:59:58 <nezZario> kjj: not really, but mailing list+now there is a github issue+a reddit post pointing to the github issue.. i'm going to guess there is probably a bitcointalk thread (recent ones) too
295 2014-03-14 16:00:05 <dexx> don't say that. a lot of people would love to have proper multisig support.
296 2014-03-14 16:00:23 <nezZario> dexx: they should voice that as much as their support for (m|u)BTC, then :)
297 2014-03-14 16:00:26 <nezZario> is all i'm saying^
298 2014-03-14 16:01:15 <nezZario> although i'm pretty happy with the new dev guidelines docs
299 2014-03-14 16:01:24 <nezZario> that's really nice, .. anybody know who wrote it?
300 2014-03-14 16:04:27 <maaku> we need to start using hashcash for th development list...
301 2014-03-14 16:04:44 <sipa> loi
302 2014-03-14 16:05:00 <wumpus> nezZario: yes for normal development topics it's almost impossible to get anyone except a small group interested, now this stupid unit issue and everyone needs to voice their opinion, even though I warned that exactly this would happen....
303 2014-03-14 16:15:41 <gavinandresen> wumpus: just change the -Qt default to uBTC (because Jeff really cares, and BitPay is a huge source of transaction volume) and then ignore all the noise.
304 2014-03-14 16:17:12 <wumpus> I really doubt the wisdom of changing the default to a unit that no one in the ecosystem uses yet
305 2014-03-14 16:17:36 <gavinandresen> wumpus: okey dokey.
306 2014-03-14 16:18:02 <gavinandresen> wumpus: I would be extremely surprised if Bitcoin Core was the leading wallet by number of users any more, and that's a good thing
307 2014-03-14 16:18:13 <gavinandresen> ⦠so all the argument is, in the big picture, silly.
308 2014-03-14 16:18:18 <wumpus> I'd be fine with some kind of dialog at startup that convinces the user of the advantages of uBTC, but suddenly throwing a default change in people's faces I dunno
309 2014-03-14 16:18:29 <wumpus> gavinandresen: right, that was one of my points as well
310 2014-03-14 16:18:35 <wumpus> this needs to be a concerted effort to work
311 2014-03-14 16:18:58 <wumpus> other sides need to implement uBTC as option before we can switch the default, otherwise there's a communication issue
312 2014-03-14 16:19:03 <jgarzik> well... Bitcoin Wallet just sort of went and did it
313 2014-03-14 16:19:03 <wumpus> sites*
314 2014-03-14 16:19:14 <jgarzik> after a lot of effort spend on discussing the options ;p
315 2014-03-14 16:20:03 <sipa> wumpus: piBTC it is
316 2014-03-14 16:20:21 <wumpus> sipa: yes yes
317 2014-03-14 16:20:26 <arubi> happy pie day \o/
318 2014-03-14 16:20:43 <stonecoldpat> it would be easier just to have an option to display all of them and choose what you would like
319 2014-03-14 16:20:45 <arubi> pi lol
320 2014-03-14 16:20:45 <wumpus> arubi: same \o/
321 2014-03-14 16:20:57 <stonecoldpat> for novice users, if they see uBTC - they can refer to their wallet to see how many they have
322 2014-03-14 16:21:06 <wumpus> stonecoldpat: again, the option already exists in bitcon-qt since day one
323 2014-03-14 16:21:32 <stonecoldpat> wumpus: ah sorry i never use qt, didnt realize
324 2014-03-14 16:21:46 <wumpus> stonecoldpat: that's the same point, everyone comments on this without even using the software
325 2014-03-14 16:22:04 <sipa> for some odd reason they still consoder it the reference, it seems
326 2014-03-14 16:24:34 <epscy> wumpus: i guess this unit issue is the very definition of bike shedding
327 2014-03-14 16:24:54 <epscy> also IMO bitcoin should be red, not gold
328 2014-03-14 16:25:01 <wumpus> epscy: something the bitcoin community is very good at
329 2014-03-14 16:25:12 <wumpus> epscy: I like it green that's why I mostly use testnet :)
330 2014-03-14 16:25:26 <sipa> haha
331 2014-03-14 16:25:44 <hearn> jgarzik: please stop blaming andreas for this
332 2014-03-14 16:25:58 <hearn> hearn: bitcoin wallet switched because most of the rest of the community already had done so. he was actually one of the last
333 2014-03-14 16:26:01 <hearn> oops
334 2014-03-14 16:26:02 <hearn> :)
335 2014-03-14 16:26:05 <hearn> ACTION is talking to himself now
336 2014-03-14 16:26:23 <hearn> jgarzik: that's why it's so bizarre that this came up again now. the transition took place months ago
337 2014-03-14 16:26:32 <hearn> jgarzik: can bitpay not simply round prices in mBTC?
338 2014-03-14 16:27:35 <jgarzik> hearn, that doesn't fix the universe. People outside of BitPay trying to integrate bitcoin into their systems run into this.
339 2014-03-14 16:29:45 <sipa> hearn: i know of the increase in orphans while fetching, but i don't think it's related to any code changes
340 2014-03-14 16:29:59 <sipa> hearn: working on headers-first sync now though
341 2014-03-14 16:30:49 <stonecoldpat> to win the argument just do a hard-fork and remove 6 decimal places, so mBTC only has 2 points;)
342 2014-03-14 16:30:58 <sipa> loi
343 2014-03-14 16:31:53 <hearn> sipa: hmm. any idea what causes it? change in network conditions?
344 2014-03-14 16:32:11 <hearn> jgarzik: yeah but they could also just round .... >2dp in mBTC is a fraction of a penny anyway, so is it really useful to put such information into a UI?
345 2014-03-14 16:32:29 <sipa> hearn: slower sync means more chances to be disturbed i guess
346 2014-03-14 16:32:31 <hearn> i mean is there a class of customer that would pay 3.13995 mBTC but not 3.14 mBTC?
347 2014-03-14 16:33:22 <hearn> that's actually something worth thinking about more.
348 2014-03-14 16:33:43 <hearn> jgarzik: if the accounting software can't handle fractions of a penny, then rounding at display/payment request time shouldn't actually make any difference to the final books, right?
349 2014-03-14 16:33:52 <hearn> or rather, rounding at the time of the currency conversion
350 2014-03-14 16:34:26 <stonecoldpat> hearn: i wouldnt restrict peoples choice or force them to do rounding, surely financial software can just 'convert' to uBTC for calculation and then 'convert' back to mBTC?
351 2014-03-14 16:34:30 <hearn> and it has the advantage of making people's wallet UI's look cleaner too. after all just shifting to uBTC doesn't reduce the numeric noise
352 2014-03-14 16:34:43 <hearn> stonecoldpat: well i suggested that but apparently it helps if the books reflect the same prices users saw
353 2014-03-14 16:35:43 <stonecoldpat> hearn: i guess, but surely the software can just display mBTC, but do uBTC calculations underneath, dont see why it should struggle
354 2014-03-14 16:36:16 <stonecoldpat> if currency is evolving, then in a digital age surely two decimal places is a bit limiting?
355 2014-03-14 16:37:12 <sipa> it's just easier to have everyone use the same notation everywhere
356 2014-03-14 16:37:18 <sipa> but i guess people won't agree
357 2014-03-14 16:38:32 <stonecoldpat> at the moment, i think mBTC would make more sense, just because a uBIT isn't worth very much
358 2014-03-14 16:38:48 <sipa> i think that is entirely irrelevant
359 2014-03-14 16:39:07 <jgarzik> hearn, all your responses seem to match the pattern "how to I work around these problems with mBTC, while avoiding the obvious solution" ;p
360 2014-03-14 16:39:11 <sipa> there are currencies where people regularly pay millions
361 2014-03-14 16:39:29 <sipa> and people do not reason yet in btc/mbtc/... at all
362 2014-03-14 16:39:35 <sipa> and they won't for a long time
363 2014-03-14 16:39:54 <sipa> it's not like it breaks any mental model of value people have of value in btc yet
364 2014-03-14 16:40:15 <stonecoldpat> thats true, i dont have experience of using those type of currencies which is why I'm off the mentality of keeping with smaller numbers when trading
365 2014-03-14 16:53:10 <sipa> saivann: who do i contact about http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide ?
366 2014-03-14 16:53:30 <saivann> sipa: me :)
367 2014-03-14 16:53:35 <saivann> saivann@gmail.com
368 2014-03-14 16:53:48 <saivann> And https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoin-documentation
369 2014-03-14 16:54:05 <sipa> Bits translates into the target threshold value â the maximum allowed value for this blockâs hash. The bit value must be at least as challenging as the network difficulty at the time the block was mined.
370 2014-03-14 16:54:18 <sipa> ^- that's not correct; the bits value _defines_ the difficulty and the target
371 2014-03-14 16:54:28 <sipa> the hash must be below the target defined by bits
372 2014-03-14 16:54:40 <sipa> but the bits value must be exact
373 2014-03-14 16:54:51 <saivann> sipa: Can you open an issue there : https://github.com/saivann/bitcoin.org/issues?state=open
374 2014-03-14 16:54:59 <sipa> will do
375 2014-03-14 16:55:00 <saivann> (Or make a pull req, as you wish)
376 2014-03-14 16:55:10 <saivann> Thanks
377 2014-03-14 17:02:39 <lnovy> I'll just leave it here... http://youtu.be/D1XPS-j-O24
378 2014-03-14 17:04:56 <wallet42> i like the pi base proposal..
379 2014-03-14 17:56:13 <stonecoldpat> anyone have experience of building bitcoin on fedora?
380 2014-03-14 18:10:51 <jgarzik> stonecoldpat, yes, myself warren and gmaxwell
381 2014-03-14 18:11:12 <jgarzik> stonecoldpat, you must rebuild openssl, then everything else tends to work out of the box
382 2014-03-14 18:11:24 <softwaremechanic> For bip32 wallets, how are chain codes generated? It's not clear to me how it's made when I'm building a new wallet master node.
383 2014-03-14 18:13:20 <jgarzik> softwaremechanic, the initial chain code, or the chain codes that follow?
384 2014-03-14 18:17:39 <softwaremechanic> The initial one
385 2014-03-14 18:18:16 <softwaremechanic> I didn't realize there was a difference I guess. I was thinking that the chain code was unique for each node in the wallet chain
386 2014-03-14 18:25:16 <stonecoldpat> jgarzik: whats the best way to make bitcoin point to your new openssl compilation?
387 2014-03-14 18:41:18 <dims> stonecoldpat, there are 4 flags mentioned in an old chat you can try - http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/11/22#l1385084383
388 2014-03-14 18:43:21 <stonecoldpat> dims: thanks will look at that now
389 2014-03-14 18:49:37 <freeroute> hi, is it possible to write a BTC wallet in bash? I'm asking because I wanted to learn bash for a long time now and this seems like an interesting project to make.
390 2014-03-14 18:56:10 <edcba> freeroute: don't
391 2014-03-14 18:57:00 <freeroute> edcba:
392 2014-03-14 18:57:04 <freeroute> why?
393 2014-03-14 18:57:55 <freeroute> I've read that bash struggles a lot with multi-threaded programming and OOP, is that a requirement for a BTC wallet?
394 2014-03-14 18:58:05 <freeroute> of course I'll do a testnet version first
395 2014-03-14 18:58:20 <edcba> there are a lot of stuff you would struggle with
396 2014-03-14 18:59:22 <freeroute> you know, strangely enough, struggling is becoming very comfortable for me. For example... I quit my job previously to learn Linux, but after 4 months non-stop learning I still wasn't knowledgeable enough to land a job in that field.
397 2014-03-14 18:59:41 <freeroute> so now I'm back to working in hotels
398 2014-03-14 18:59:50 <freeroute> but... I still want to learn it
399 2014-03-14 19:00:06 <freeroute> am I becoming what's called a masochist?
400 2014-03-14 19:04:24 <venzen> freeroute: it's not about the multi-threading or OOP - it's just that bash is more suited to interacting with the Linux OS - the kind of things you're going to have to code to make even a simple wallet is just going to break your balls in bash... there are some Bash cookbooks on the net - but a Bitcoin wallet... ouch
401 2014-03-14 19:13:58 <CheckDavid> Does anyone know where to get a script that creates a btc address and corresponding keys? Python would be nice. But any language would be better than nothing.
402 2014-03-14 19:20:17 <venzen> CheckDavid: try this Python toolkit: https://github.com/richardkiss/pycoin
403 2014-03-14 19:21:32 <CheckDavid> venzen: I am very noon I will most probably get lost but I will try to find my way
404 2014-03-14 19:22:36 <CheckDavid> Oh
405 2014-03-14 19:22:41 <freeroute> venzen: would you consider a BTC wallet written in ASM to be easier?
406 2014-03-14 19:22:44 <CheckDavid> So this is a library?
407 2014-03-14 19:24:27 <venzen> CheckDavid: yes, each lib module does a a specific thing - so the adress creation is seperate from the signing, etc
408 2014-03-14 19:25:03 <CheckDavid> Oh. So there is a module dedicated to address creation?
409 2014-03-14 19:25:14 <CheckDavid> I am not aware about modular libraries though
410 2014-03-14 19:26:18 <CheckDavid> https://github.com/richardkiss/pycoin/blob/master/README.md. <- this page talks about private wallets
411 2014-03-14 19:26:24 <CheckDavid> I never heard about it
412 2014-03-14 19:26:44 <CheckDavid> What kind of wallet is this?
413 2014-03-14 19:27:55 <venzen> Chief_Panda: i can't really say for ASM, but Python is good for most things... just dive in and see what pycoin does - it certainly does addresses and signing (and more)
414 2014-03-14 19:28:11 <venzen> sorry CheckDavid
415 2014-03-14 19:31:51 <wbaw> freeroute, it's possible, but not a good idea
416 2014-03-14 19:32:05 <wbaw> don't do one in php either
417 2014-03-14 19:33:44 <venzen> CheckDavid: the readme is referring to code objects when it says "public" and "private" wallets - so a public wallet generate public keys and a private wallet object -> private keys, as it says: the "genwallet" utility allows interaction with the API, so start there
418 2014-03-14 19:37:03 <iaserrat> .
419 2014-03-14 19:42:43 <freeroute> wbaw: at first I wanted to learn PHP because of WP, but now I'm leaning towards JS and node. But what would you consider to be easier, a BTC wallet in bash or BTC wallet in ASM?
420 2014-03-14 19:43:19 <wbaw> if your bash script just calls bitcoind, then that
421 2014-03-14 19:44:09 <wbaw> #!/bin/bash
422 2014-03-14 19:44:16 <wbaw> bitcoind -daemon
423 2014-03-14 19:46:07 <wbaw> choose the right language for the job
424 2014-03-14 19:47:06 <dims> CheckDavid, the smallest python code for a btc address and private key i've seen is the first snippet of code in http://www.righto.com/2014/02/bitcoins-hard-way-using-raw-bitcoin.html