1 2014-05-08 00:46:34 <coryfields> warren: changes pushed up to make the osx x86_64 build deterministic now as well, if you feel like playing with it.
  2 2014-05-08 00:46:46 <coryfields> I'm going to call that my stopping point for the night
  3 2014-05-08 04:13:53 <x0301> hello, can someone tell me if my understanding of SIGHASH_SINGLE and SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY is correct?
  4 2014-05-08 04:15:08 <x0301> I'm reading through the documentation on the wiki but I'm not sure if I am understanding it correctly
  5 2014-05-08 04:23:50 <lifeofcray> hey
  6 2014-05-08 04:24:07 <lifeofcray> hey guys, is there any open source internet wallet coes
  7 2014-05-08 04:24:17 <lifeofcray> codes out there, that you feel are good?
  8 2014-05-08 04:24:44 <lifeofcray> I was planning on opening up a multicoin wallet, bitcoin, litecoin, etc
  9 2014-05-08 04:24:53 <lifeofcray> but i don't want to write the thing from scratch
 10 2014-05-08 04:39:20 <midnightmagic> lifeofcray: altcoins offtopic in here. Also, please reconsider doing a web wallet.
 11 2014-05-08 04:41:50 <lifeofcray> midnightmagic why so?
 12 2014-05-08 04:41:55 <dcousens> what does the 'v' represent in vout?
 13 2014-05-08 04:42:08 <lifeofcray> it's not something i've just though about right now
 14 2014-05-08 04:42:16 <lifeofcray> we've had these plans for a while
 15 2014-05-08 04:42:27 <lifeofcray> to strenghen our brand name
 16 2014-05-08 04:42:43 <dcousens> lifeofcray: I agree with midnightmagic, but in any case, CoinPunk?
 17 2014-05-08 04:42:55 <midnightmagic> lifeofcray: It breaks the trust model; also, it's extremely difficult ~impossible to write one securely for users.
 18 2014-05-08 04:43:07 <survic> lifeofcray: it always ends in disaster. that you're asking for a premade solution says to me that you haven't thought through what it means to be in control and have responsibility for the security of other people's money.
 19 2014-05-08 04:45:54 <dcousens> what does the 'v' represent in vout?
 20 2014-05-08 04:46:12 <dcousens> (not sure if that went through before, VPS terminal crapped out)
 21 2014-05-08 04:50:38 <lifeofcray> survic oh i know exactly how much work
 22 2014-05-08 04:50:40 <lifeofcray> it would be
 23 2014-05-08 04:51:08 <lifeofcray> hence why i'm asking if there's anything open source to get me started
 24 2014-05-08 04:51:26 <lifeofcray> i already run several pools at bitember.com
 25 2014-05-08 04:51:42 <lifeofcray> which a lot of money, where we have to think a lot about security
 26 2014-05-08 04:53:18 <lifeofcray> so what i'm asking for is an active project, since they tend to have several people updating and patching the code
 27 2014-05-08 04:53:26 <survic> running what ammounts to a bank is a whole different matter. you'll be attacked with zero days, have your BGP routes poisoned, have people trying to social engineer your data center's administration. faced with those, no sane person would even attempt this.
 28 2014-05-08 04:54:14 <lifeofcray> if no sane person ever attempt it, it'll never be done
 29 2014-05-08 04:54:28 <survic> it should never be done, that's the point.
 30 2014-05-08 04:54:43 <lifeofcray> thing is, there's a vacuum for the service as it stands now
 31 2014-05-08 04:54:57 <lifeofcray> you either store your coins on your computer, or an exchange as cryptorush
 32 2014-05-08 04:55:21 <lifeofcray> which went down
 33 2014-05-08 04:55:24 <lifeofcray> or mtgox
 34 2014-05-08 04:55:27 <lifeofcray> which went down
 35 2014-05-08 04:55:39 <lifeofcray> or cryptsy, which have insanely high rates
 36 2014-05-08 04:55:39 <survic> what stops your web wallet from going the same way?
 37 2014-05-08 04:56:19 <lifeofcray> well, for one thing, i wouldn't just "lose" a wallet with 200k btc
 38 2014-05-08 04:56:38 <lifeofcray> and then just operate as any sane bank
 39 2014-05-08 04:56:57 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: vector
 40 2014-05-08 04:57:02 <survic> what happens when your server does get compromised?
 41 2014-05-08 04:57:45 <Luke-Jr> lifeofcray: no offense, but magicaltux was probably more competent to keep 200kBTC safe than you are
 42 2014-05-08 04:57:48 <lifeofcray> store the money off site, have people requiring to verificate their identity if the account rises above a certain value, 2fa, bot prevention
 43 2014-05-08 04:57:55 <survic> even Luke-Jr's pool got popped recently. you can't have absolute security.
 44 2014-05-08 04:58:04 <Luke-Jr> survic: not really
 45 2014-05-08 04:58:14 <lifeofcray> you can never have absolute security in any company
 46 2014-05-08 04:58:22 <lifeofcray> what you can do is to mitigate the risk
 47 2014-05-08 04:58:27 <survic> Luke-Jr: oh I know, the front end got compromised, let me make an example at your expensive
 48 2014-05-08 04:58:31 <survic> expense.
 49 2014-05-08 04:58:35 <Luke-Jr> survic: no bitcoins were lost
 50 2014-05-08 04:58:45 <survic> Luke-Jr: namecoin on the other hand ;)
 51 2014-05-08 04:58:56 <Luke-Jr> yes, namecoin is worthless and has problems interfering with proper security
 52 2014-05-08 04:59:33 <lifeofcray> i didnt really want this to become an etichs or moral discussion
 53 2014-05-08 04:59:57 <Luke-Jr> lifeofcray: it's not a moral discussion; the point is you *cannot* secure it
 54 2014-05-08 05:00:01 <lifeofcray> i'd take similar precautions as when I worked as a bank
 55 2014-05-08 05:00:04 <survic> lifeofcray: then don't talk about it here. we've told you that it's a stupid idea, and you shouldn't attempt it.
 56 2014-05-08 05:00:15 <Luke-Jr> lifeofcray: banks aren't as secure, as a webwallet needs to be
 57 2014-05-08 05:00:21 <lifeofcray> you're never secure, but more often than not, your profit is higher than your loss
 58 2014-05-08 05:00:26 <lifeofcray> otherwise you go bankrupt
 59 2014-05-08 05:00:31 <Luke-Jr> banks don't let you do wire transfers online
 60 2014-05-08 05:00:33 <Luke-Jr> and can reverse them
 61 2014-05-08 05:00:36 <survic> lifeofcray: what happens when somebody comes to your house with a baseball bat and tells you to give up your keys?
 62 2014-05-08 05:01:12 <Luke-Jr> …
 63 2014-05-08 05:01:18 <lifeofcray> right
 64 2014-05-08 05:01:28 <Luke-Jr> someone robbing lifeofcray has to consider whether the risk is worth their potential gain (1 user's savings)
 65 2014-05-08 05:01:45 <Luke-Jr> a webwallet, on the other hand, basically guarantees you will be a high-value target
 66 2014-05-08 05:02:04 <lifeofcray> that's a risk i'm willing to take
 67 2014-05-08 05:02:15 <survic> Luke-Jr: I meant the keys to the web wallet, not the users itself.
 68 2014-05-08 05:02:21 <Luke-Jr> lifeofcray: and when you lose thousands of bitcoins?
 69 2014-05-08 05:02:29 <lifeofcray> i'll go bankrupt
 70 2014-05-08 05:02:29 <Luke-Jr> survic: I know you did.
 71 2014-05-08 05:02:36 <Luke-Jr> lifeofcray: see mtgox
 72 2014-05-08 05:03:07 <lifeofcray> well hopefully it wont come to that
 73 2014-05-08 05:03:09 <survic> Luke-Jr: oh right, misread.
 74 2014-05-08 05:03:12 <lifeofcray> but if it does, bankruptcy
 75 2014-05-08 05:03:19 <lifeofcray> just as any other company
 76 2014-05-08 05:03:37 <survic> nice plan.
 77 2014-05-08 05:03:44 <lifeofcray> what do you want me to say?
 78 2014-05-08 05:03:52 <lifeofcray> if you went to ikea and took all their money
 79 2014-05-08 05:03:54 <lifeofcray> like all of it
 80 2014-05-08 05:04:03 <lifeofcray> do you think they would not file for bankruptcy
 81 2014-05-08 05:04:10 <Luke-Jr> lifeofcray: point is, MtGox already did that. and they were more competent than anyone else trying in the past and probably future.
 82 2014-05-08 05:04:15 <Luke-Jr> near future*
 83 2014-05-08 05:04:16 <lifeofcray> the question is how prepared you are for a set back
 84 2014-05-08 05:04:16 <survic> no, they'd just ask their bank to reverse the transaction.
 85 2014-05-08 05:04:47 <lifeofcray> survic and what if someone took all the banks money?
 86 2014-05-08 05:05:09 <Luke-Jr> lifeofcray: that's what the FBI is for
 87 2014-05-08 05:05:13 <sipa> lifeofcray: http://canibuildasitehandlingotherpeoplesmoney.com/
 88 2014-05-08 05:05:17 <survic> lifeofcray: you can't do that. banks usually don't have the money on hand to even be stolen.
 89 2014-05-08 05:05:19 <lifeofcray> you're taking a risk storing your BTC
 90 2014-05-08 05:05:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: nice!
 91 2014-05-08 05:05:38 <lifeofcray> oh my god
 92 2014-05-08 05:05:43 <lifeofcray> i though this was -dev
 93 2014-05-08 05:05:45 <lifeofcray> not -ethics
 94 2014-05-08 05:05:57 <sipa> basically everyone who has tried to do so has failed; some several times
 95 2014-05-08 05:06:05 <sipa> i agree it's off topic here, though
 96 2014-05-08 05:06:17 <survic> lifeofcray: ethical people won't help you shoot yourself in the ass, no matter what the channel.
 97 2014-05-08 05:06:23 <lifeofcray> blockchain.info
 98 2014-05-08 05:06:28 <lifeofcray> cryptsy.com
 99 2014-05-08 05:06:45 <Luke-Jr> 
ACTION will breathe a sigh of relief when blockchain.info loses a bunch of money

100 2014-05-08 05:06:49 <survic> blockchain.info is arguably stupid for doing what they're doing
101 2014-05-08 05:06:54 <dokk> is there any open-source merged mining pool software?
102 2014-05-08 05:07:01 <Luke-Jr> dokk: Eloipool
103 2014-05-08 05:07:02 <lifeofcray> i can assure you that blockchain.info and cryptsy.com
104 2014-05-08 05:07:09 <lifeofcray> has lost a lot of bitcoins
105 2014-05-08 05:07:12 <lifeofcray> due to theft
106 2014-05-08 05:07:17 <Luke-Jr> dokk: assuming you consider AGPL to be open source enough
107 2014-05-08 05:07:29 <survic> lifeofcray: nobody would argue with you there.
108 2014-05-08 05:07:42 <dokk> Luke-Jr: I will check it out
109 2014-05-08 05:09:24 <lifeofcray> yeah
110 2014-05-08 05:09:29 <lifeofcray> ill just write my own
111 2014-05-08 05:09:37 <lifeofcray> it'll take a while
112 2014-05-08 05:09:58 <lifeofcray> and it'll be less secure than an ongoing open source project
113 2014-05-08 05:10:00 <lifeofcray> but fuck it
114 2014-05-08 05:10:14 <survic> lifeofcray: you must be incredibly dense to continue on given this response to your idea.
115 2014-05-08 05:10:44 <lifeofcray> sometimes you have to take a risk
116 2014-05-08 05:11:10 <lifeofcray> make a daughter company handle the service
117 2014-05-08 05:11:25 <lifeofcray> economy 101
118 2014-05-08 05:12:03 <survic> > do something everybody has told you not to
119 2014-05-08 05:12:09 <survic> > shut down the shell company and declare bankruptcy when it gets compromised
120 2014-05-08 05:12:21 <survic> yep. economy 101.
121 2014-05-08 05:13:16 <lifeofcray> if i never did anything people told me not to
122 2014-05-08 05:13:18 <lifeofcray> i'd be broke
123 2014-05-08 05:13:41 <lifeofcray> again
124 2014-05-08 05:13:42 <lifeofcray> ethics
125 2014-05-08 05:13:47 <lifeofcray> not much dev
126 2014-05-08 05:13:55 <survic> do what you want, but stop talking about it in this channel.
127 2014-05-08 05:14:06 <lifeofcray> you can't tell me what to do survic
128 2014-05-08 05:14:31 <lifeofcray> no matter how condescending you are
129 2014-05-08 05:14:52 <survic> this channel is for core development discussion, you've already been told this by other users.
130 2014-05-08 05:15:19 <lifeofcray> and i asked for an open source bitcoin wallet
131 2014-05-08 05:15:27 <lifeofcray> told to you by me, several times
132 2014-05-08 05:15:35 <survic> that's not core development discussion.
133 2014-05-08 05:15:43 <lifeofcray> you dragged it into a discussion it wasn'
134 2014-05-08 05:15:44 <lifeofcray> t
135 2014-05-08 05:16:16 <lifeofcray> "This is for discussion about the Bitcoin network and reference software"
136 2014-05-08 05:16:50 <lifeofcray> read the topic
137 2014-05-08 05:17:38 <survic> a web wallet is neither.
138 2014-05-08 05:18:00 <lifeofcray> "blah blah i don't know the answer so i'm going to spout bullshit"
139 2014-05-08 05:18:08 <lifeofcray> that's what i'm hearing right now
140 2014-05-08 05:18:11 <lifeofcray> from you
141 2014-05-08 06:06:57 <[\\\]> +1
142 2014-05-08 06:17:59 <Eremes> are we having a long block ?
143 2014-05-08 06:18:13 <Eremes> its been an hour I sent payment not even 1 confirm ?
144 2014-05-08 06:19:17 <gmaxwell> Eremes: Take that kind of question to #bitcoin please! (see also: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin-dev)
145 2014-05-08 06:21:06 <Eremes> gmaxwell: sorry & thanks
146 2014-05-08 08:47:53 <poutine> Is there any examples or cataloging of strange scripting in transactions?
147 2014-05-08 08:49:03 <wumpus> poutine: yess https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5883/is-there-a-listing-of-strange-or-unusual-scripts-found-in-transactions
148 2014-05-08 08:49:15 <poutine> Thanks wumpus
149 2014-05-08 08:49:24 <poutine> I'm guessing that was a simple google away, my bad
150 2014-05-08 08:50:02 <wumpus> huh, seems that the blockchain.info page with strange transactions isn't showing anything anymore
151 2014-05-08 08:51:00 <wumpus> I imagine most of the 'stranger' transactions are on testnet
152 2014-05-08 08:59:50 <ccapndave> Hey everyone
153 2014-05-08 09:01:09 <ccapndave> Is there a way to use sendfrom <account> such that it will succeed even if there isn't enougy balance in <account> (there is enough in the wallet in other accounts though).  Currently it says 'account has insufficient funds', but if I was to use sendtoaddress to send from the default account it would work fine, and put the default account into negative balance.
154 2014-05-08 09:01:26 <ccapndave> So I want that behaviour, but sending from a non-default account
155 2014-05-08 09:09:28 <wumpus> I don't think so, the account system is extremely inconsistent in that regard
156 2014-05-08 09:09:55 <ccapndave> Yes, it seems kind of odd in general
157 2014-05-08 09:10:16 <ccapndave> I actually just saw a comment in a bug saying account functionality would be removed completely in the next major release
158 2014-05-08 09:10:40 <wumpus> indeed
159 2014-05-08 09:11:33 <ccapndave> Not really sure how to implement my app without using accounts though :(
160 2014-05-08 09:12:19 <wumpus> just like you'd implement any accounting system; in principle accounting for bitcoins is not different than accounting for dollars, euros, etc
161 2014-05-08 09:12:39 <ccapndave> Real accounting is even more complicated ;)
162 2014-05-08 09:12:47 <ccapndave> If I use bitcoind to move funds between accounts, its all internal right?  It won't generate any transactions
163 2014-05-08 09:13:44 <wumpus> yes, it just generates an entry in its own internal ledger
164 2014-05-08 09:14:13 <ccapndave> OK thanks
165 2014-05-08 09:14:18 <wumpus> nothing changes for the outside world
166 2014-05-08 09:14:38 <ccapndave> I have been reading that bitcoind isn't scalable up to lots of accounts/transactions so I guess I'll worry about changing it if the traffic makes it worthwhile
167 2014-05-08 09:16:34 <wumpus> right, the wallet in bitcoind doesn't scale very well, but none of the open source wallets in common use do AFAIK
168 2014-05-08 09:16:47 <ccapndave> Fingers crossed by the time I need it they will
169 2014-05-08 09:17:01 <ccapndave> I don't look forward to implementing my own client...
170 2014-05-08 09:17:55 <ccapndave> But anyway, given that bitcoind might not be usable in the long run I might as well hack something with accounts and move
171 2014-05-08 09:17:56 <wumpus> one day, someone that actually uses bitcoind on a high-traffic service should help bitcoind's wallet scale better, find out where the pain points are, optimize it
172 2014-05-08 09:18:05 <ccapndave> Its got to happen at some point
173 2014-05-08 09:18:24 <ccapndave> If it happens to be me I promise to contribute it
174 2014-05-08 09:18:36 <ccapndave> 
ACTION makes a pinkie promise

175 2014-05-08 09:18:43 <wumpus> great!
176 2014-05-08 09:19:13 <wumpus> most of the current devs are interested in improviding node performance, but not so much wallet performance
177 2014-05-08 09:19:21 <wumpus> improving*
178 2014-05-08 09:20:45 <wumpus> removing 'ballast' like the account system may be a step in that direction, though a small one
179 2014-05-08 09:22:05 <ccapndave> Maybe bundling an optional dbms that stays in sync with the client would be a solution
180 2014-05-08 09:22:26 <ccapndave> Then that can take care of indexing, etc
181 2014-05-08 09:22:41 <ccapndave> With a simple bridge to make sure that transactions end up in a nice table structure
182 2014-05-08 09:22:52 <ccapndave> As it stands almost everyone ends up writing one anyway
183 2014-05-08 09:23:19 <ccapndave> Then some of the performance heavy stuff can be offloading to an existing open source solution
184 2014-05-08 09:23:47 <wumpus> someone with a profiler and c++ knowledge and actual large-wallet test cases could probably go a long way
185 2014-05-08 09:23:54 <ccapndave> offloaded*
186 2014-05-08 09:24:07 <wumpus> shouldn't need to introduce any new dependencies
187 2014-05-08 09:24:18 <ccapndave> I suppose
188 2014-05-08 09:24:39 <wumpus> leveldb and the current indexes are very fast, I'm sure that isn't the bottleneck
189 2014-05-08 09:24:58 <ccapndave> If the accounting system is removed something will need to replace it though
190 2014-05-08 09:25:07 <wumpus> not anything by us
191 2014-05-08 09:25:26 <ccapndave> All people want is stuff like searching for all receive transactions from a certain address
192 2014-05-08 09:25:32 <wumpus> I'd hope someone would work on an open-source and sane replacement for it, that works outside bitcoind as a layer on top