1 2014-06-15 00:03:29 <G_Qu> sorry amiller, here's more detailed information http://pastebin.com/L0dJ8gRC
2 2014-06-15 00:04:16 <ielo> hey can someone help me out i get a syntax error
3 2014-06-15 00:04:18 <amiller> G_Qu, put ' ' around the second part as well as the first part
4 2014-06-15 00:06:06 <amiller> G_Qu, note that the error is from zsh, not from bitcoin
5 2014-06-15 00:07:16 <G_Qu> thanks amiller
6 2014-06-15 00:07:23 <G_Qu> think i will kill zsh
7 2014-06-15 00:08:28 <amiller> no don't kill zsh, i'm just pointing out that the error message is a hint to you that you are making an error that has to do with not understanding your shell's syntax, not bitcoind syntax
8 2014-06-15 00:09:07 <G_Qu> well that's unfortunate. I have no idea how I can get around that.
9 2014-06-15 00:09:28 <kadoban> By fixing your shell syntax...
10 2014-06-15 00:10:03 <G_Qu> sounds good
11 2014-06-15 01:00:23 <gavinandresen> If you're able to gitian-build releases⦠now would be a great time to fire up your virtual machine and build the 0.9.2 release.
12 2014-06-15 01:17:48 <midnightmagic> sweet
13 2014-06-15 02:54:15 <brandondahler> done/what functions might help in re-processing the newly sized block file.
14 2014-06-15 02:54:15 <brandondahler> I'm working on a code change to reduce block file size by about 15% (3GB), by parsing static script values and indexing duplicates on a per-file basis. One part of it is that I will need to re-write the block files and re-process the blocks within to update the disk positions of blocks and transactions. I was looking to see if anyone could give me a summary of what might need to be
15 2014-06-15 04:39:54 <michagogo> gavinandresen: I should actually have the last build waiting for me done downstairs
16 2014-06-15 04:40:28 <michagogo> Just woke up, within the next hour or so I should have it signed and pushed for you to pull
17 2014-06-15 05:25:04 <btcxpert> n
18 2014-06-15 05:36:20 <fanquake> ;blocks
19 2014-06-15 05:44:21 <fanquake> ;;blocks
20 2014-06-15 05:44:22 <gribble> 305895
21 2014-06-15 05:47:54 <michagogo> wumpus: if you see this, you can pull from my gsigs repo -- I pushed, but didn't have enough time to open a browser and PR
22 2014-06-15 05:50:40 <gribble> wyager was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 10 weeks, 4 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <wyager> Easy to read through
23 2014-06-15 05:50:40 <jcorgan> ;;seen wyager
24 2014-06-15 07:22:32 <robin__> how does the bitcoin client create a wallet? the Q is not how to create a wallet, but how does the client do it?
25 2014-06-15 07:25:26 <Luke-Jr> quick, 2 minutes to answer!
26 2014-06-15 09:15:12 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr: i expected more of you
27 2014-06-15 09:15:18 <SomeoneWeird> but you were not fast enough
28 2014-06-15 09:20:47 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: ;)
29 2014-06-15 09:28:22 <SomeoneWeird> i am attempting to gitian. my guest vm keeps panicing c_c;
30 2014-06-15 09:28:47 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: hm, that's not good
31 2014-06-15 09:29:02 <michagogo> (luke, want to pull in my sigs?)
32 2014-06-15 09:30:20 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: aye, can't remember, was it you i chatted to about this before?
33 2014-06-15 09:30:28 <michagogo> maybe?
34 2014-06-15 09:31:00 <SomeoneWeird> heh, nvm then
35 2014-06-15 09:32:22 <michagogo> What is your build environment?
36 2014-06-15 09:32:44 <michagogo> If the guest VM is panicking, I guess you're using KVM or VBox?
37 2014-06-15 09:34:11 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: done
38 2014-06-15 09:34:42 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: vbox for gitian host
39 2014-06-15 09:34:48 <SomeoneWeird> hrmm
40 2014-06-15 09:35:00 <SomeoneWeird> ok running the lxc setup cmd seems to have worked for the second time
41 2014-06-15 09:35:18 <michagogo> So you're on some machine, running gitian with LXC inside VBox?
42 2014-06-15 09:35:43 <michagogo> That's what I do too. I wonder what's going wrong.
43 2014-06-15 09:35:46 <SomeoneWeird> yup
44 2014-06-15 09:35:55 <SomeoneWeird> i'll see how the dep builds go
45 2014-06-15 09:35:59 <michagogo> Good luck
46 2014-06-15 09:36:04 <SomeoneWeird> :)
47 2014-06-15 09:36:13 <michagogo> If you just want a quick gbuild, the osx natives is a fast one
48 2014-06-15 09:36:17 <michagogo> (IIRC)
49 2014-06-15 09:36:34 <michagogo> (to see that it works, I mean)
50 2014-06-15 09:37:09 <SomeoneWeird> hm, boost seems to have built OK
51 2014-06-15 09:37:17 <SomeoneWeird> maybe something just went funky the first time i ran the command
52 2014-06-15 09:42:15 <michagogo> Oy
53 2014-06-15 09:42:24 <michagogo> wumpus: Gavin mismatches OS X with us
54 2014-06-15 09:43:22 <michagogo> (Win is fine, though)
55 2014-06-15 09:43:25 <michagogo> (and Linux)
56 2014-06-15 09:43:30 <michagogo> ;;seen gavinandresen
57 2014-06-15 09:43:31 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 8 hours, 43 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> If you're able to gitian-build releases⦠now would be a great time to fire up your virtual machine and build the 0.9.2 release.
58 2014-06-15 09:44:17 <michagogo> ;;later tell gavinandresen Looks like OS X matches between my build and Wladimir's, but differs from yours. D'you think it's the unclean VM issue again
59 2014-06-15 09:44:18 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
60 2014-06-15 09:44:22 <michagogo> ;;later tell gavinandresen Looks like OS X matches between my build and Wladimir's, but differs from yours. D'you think it's the unclean VM issue again?
61 2014-06-15 09:44:23 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
62 2014-06-15 09:47:42 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: hey, is $SIGNER supposed to be a string or the key id?
63 2014-06-15 09:48:08 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: it's what's passed to gpg in -u IIRC
64 2014-06-15 09:48:24 <SomeoneWeird> aha, thanks
65 2014-06-15 09:48:33 <michagogo> But it's also the name of the directory created in the gitian.sigs repo
66 2014-06-15 09:49:02 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: So you probably want it to be something that will be identifiable as you, while still letting GPG recognize it
67 2014-06-15 09:49:10 <michagogo> I use SIGNER=michagogo, for example
68 2014-06-15 09:49:32 <SomeoneWeird> ok
69 2014-06-15 09:49:41 <SomeoneWeird> thanks - hopefully this works :)
70 2014-06-15 09:50:17 <michagogo> g2g for a bit now. I'll be back later. Good luck, and thank you.
71 2014-06-15 09:54:52 <SomeoneWeird> damnit
72 2014-06-15 09:55:01 <SomeoneWeird> qt-linux* builds don't match
73 2014-06-15 09:57:59 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: none of them?
74 2014-06-15 09:58:29 <SomeoneWeird> building the inputs atm
75 2014-06-15 09:58:36 <SomeoneWeird> http://pastie.org/9291791
76 2014-06-15 09:58:37 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: bitcoin-cli perhaps?
77 2014-06-15 10:02:30 <SomeoneWeird> hrm
78 2014-06-15 10:13:50 <SomeoneWeird> damn, same results, any idea Luke-Jr ?
79 2014-06-15 10:14:32 <wumpus> SomeoneWeird: can you upload your version of the dependency somewhere? qt-linux shouldn't be so big
80 2014-06-15 10:14:50 <SomeoneWeird> wumpus: the built tarball?
81 2014-06-15 10:15:14 <wumpus> SomeoneWeird: well, the dependency file that mismatches
82 2014-06-15 10:15:23 <SomeoneWeird> can do
83 2014-06-15 10:15:48 <wumpus> qt-linux32-4.6.4-gitian-r1.tar.gz for example (or the 64 one, but I suppose they'll both differ in the same way so one will do)
84 2014-06-15 10:16:44 <wumpus> also - even if an intermediate dependency mismatches it may still be the case that the end product is the same, for example if only the order of the files is different or some other stupid difference
85 2014-06-15 10:17:21 <SomeoneWeird> hm, okay
86 2014-06-15 10:17:35 <wumpus> so it makes sense to just keep on going nevertheless
87 2014-06-15 10:18:52 <SomeoneWeird> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6z3blkrktxa33b0/qt-linux32-4.6.4-gitian-r1.tar.gz
88 2014-06-15 10:18:53 <wumpus> for example, recently gitian-builder was updated to fix the locale, the locale can affect file sorting, so it is probably something like that
89 2014-06-15 10:21:12 <wumpus> SomeoneWeird: yes, the difference is harmless, it is one of the auxilary tools that differs
90 2014-06-15 10:21:19 <SomeoneWeird> ok, cool :)
91 2014-06-15 10:21:28 <SomeoneWeird> thanks
92 2014-06-15 10:22:17 <wumpus> vbindiff a/bin/lrelease b/bin/lrelease -> qt_instdate=2011-01-30 versus 2014-06-15... thought I'd fixed that ~a week ago, but maybe I didn't cherry-pick it back to 0.9.2 branch
93 2014-06-15 10:24:03 <wumpus> indeed - that was commit 386e732
94 2014-06-15 10:24:22 <wumpus> but as said, no need to rebuild your dependency for that
95 2014-06-15 10:24:45 <SomeoneWeird> yep sweet, shall keep going
96 2014-06-15 11:09:59 <elichai2> hey
97 2014-06-15 11:10:31 <elichai2> it is possible that ghash.io splitted their hash power via two diffrent IP's so everybody will think they got only 36%?
98 2014-06-15 11:12:09 <Emcy> oh yes
99 2014-06-15 11:12:13 <Emcy> more than possible
100 2014-06-15 11:12:31 <elichai2> so how can i know 107.170.32.58 isn't ghash.io too?
101 2014-06-15 11:12:53 <Emcy> cant
102 2014-06-15 11:18:02 <netg_> they their standard provider/ASN
103 2014-06-15 11:19:19 <netg_> they=not
104 2014-06-15 11:20:28 <Emcy> i dont think its hard to proxy found blox thru a completely different range
105 2014-06-15 11:20:47 <dsnrk> elichai2: IP addresses aren't part of blocks.
106 2014-06-15 11:21:12 <elichai2> dsnrk: so how blockchain.info say's who mined what block?
107 2014-06-15 11:21:26 <dsnrk> bc.i is made of assumptions and bullshit.
108 2014-06-15 11:21:44 <elichai2> (btw, can i ask which of the devs sold part of their BTC's except petertodd?)
109 2014-06-15 11:22:39 <dsnrk> all of the IP address stuff they have is as well as made up. blocks don't and can't have IP address information. pools can tag their coinbases as theirs, but they can just decide not to do that as well. pools can even pretend blocks are another pools if they had the inclination to.
110 2014-06-15 11:23:06 <dsnrk> this is more #bitcoin stuff than -dev, lets tak this coversation there.
111 2014-06-15 11:55:27 <elichai2> any of the devs here can say if he sold his BTC's or not? (except pettertodd)
112 2014-06-15 11:56:23 <michagogo> elichai2: this is not the place for this
113 2014-06-15 11:57:02 <elichai2> michagogo: so where it is?
114 2014-06-15 11:57:21 <michagogo> #bitcoin, if anywhere at all.
115 2014-06-15 11:57:43 <elichai2> but the devs aren't there...
116 2014-06-15 11:58:22 <michagogo> Too bad.
117 2014-06-15 11:58:31 <michagogo> (also, some are)
118 2014-06-15 12:19:03 <SomeoneWeird> elichai2: that's not very polite, either
119 2014-06-15 12:19:19 <SomeoneWeird> kind of private information
120 2014-06-15 12:20:54 <SomeoneWeird> wumpus: hey, I presume the OSX sdk has to be for 10.7? (ie. not possible for me to build it on mavericks?)
121 2014-06-15 12:25:48 <elichai2> SomeoneWeird: i know... that why i asked for a dev that want to say, i didn't asked one by one, it's just to prove some people that this threat is real
122 2014-06-15 12:26:25 <SomeoneWeird> ACTION sighs
123 2014-06-15 12:44:49 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: Hm? The SDK used in gbuilds is the 10.7 one
124 2014-06-15 12:44:50 <michagogo> I guess you could probably build for Mavericks if you wanted to, but that's not what's used for the release binaries
125 2014-06-15 12:45:13 <SomeoneWeird> right, so I'd need 10.7 installed to get the SDK for gitian builds?
126 2014-06-15 12:48:54 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: hm, that's a pain
127 2014-06-15 12:49:00 <SomeoneWeird> guess i won't be building OSX then
128 2014-06-15 13:12:45 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: no, no
129 2014-06-15 13:13:14 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: do you have Xcode installed?
130 2014-06-15 13:13:52 <SomeoneWeird> I don't have a mac available atm. There's some at work which I can probably use tomorrow
131 2014-06-15 13:14:07 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: see release-process.md
132 2014-06-15 13:14:17 <michagogo> And readme-osx or something
133 2014-06-15 13:14:35 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, i've got it sorted using other methods, thanks though :)
134 2014-06-15 13:14:59 <michagogo> Short version: you download an older Xcode from apple's dev site and pull the SDK out of the dmg
135 2014-06-15 13:15:11 <michagogo> (Or have someone illegally give you a copy)
136 2014-06-15 13:15:35 <SomeoneWeird> aha, right
137 2014-06-15 13:15:37 <SomeoneWeird> thanks :)
138 2014-06-15 13:17:02 <bitSpud__> Free Spuds!!! Up to 100% Profit, 50 % Consolations!!! www.bitspud.com
139 2014-06-15 13:17:58 <SomeoneWeird> sigh.
140 2014-06-15 13:24:56 <bitSpud> Free Spuds!!! Up to 100% Profit, 50 % Consolations!!! www.bitspud.com
141 2014-06-15 13:28:17 <SomeoneWeird> ACTION goes and works out how to add autokick to gribble
142 2014-06-15 13:28:33 <SomeoneWeird> lol wtf he's using the same IP
143 2014-06-15 13:40:36 <SomeoneWeird> wow, i totally just built rc2 for everything. woops.
144 2014-06-15 13:49:48 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: well, the deps are the same
145 2014-06-15 13:49:53 <SomeoneWeird> yeah :)
146 2014-06-15 14:19:44 <gribble> wumpus was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 hours, 55 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <wumpus> but as said, no need to rebuild your dependency for that
147 2014-06-15 14:19:44 <michagogo> ;;seen wumpus
148 2014-06-15 14:24:01 <aschildbach> Anyone here who can help with error messages from the gitian build?
149 2014-06-15 14:32:30 <michagogo> aschildbach: what's up
150 2014-06-15 14:32:41 <aschildbach> ah hi
151 2014-06-15 14:33:55 <aschildbach> michagogo: I'm trying to build deps-linux. Will post error msg in a few seconds.
152 2014-06-15 14:34:49 <aschildbach> Hmm currently it checks endlessly if target is up...
153 2014-06-15 14:34:59 <aschildbach> So I don't even get to the error msg.
154 2014-06-15 14:36:06 <michagogo> aschildbach: which VM is being used for the build?
155 2014-06-15 14:36:08 <michagogo> KVM?
156 2014-06-15 14:36:17 <aschildbach> How can I say?
157 2014-06-15 14:37:29 <aschildbach> hmmm still checking... Guess I will abort it.
158 2014-06-15 14:39:07 <aschildbach> michagogo: Ah after breaking (ctrl-c) I think I got to the error msg I already has two days ago:
159 2014-06-15 14:39:30 <michagogo> aschildbach: what is your build setup?
160 2014-06-15 14:39:33 <aschildbach> gbuild:21:in 'system!' failed to run onn-target true
161 2014-06-15 14:39:43 <aschildbach> That sounds extremely cryptic to me
162 2014-06-15 14:40:10 <aschildbach> I'm using Ubuntu 14.04
163 2014-06-15 14:41:45 <wumpus> hello michagogo
164 2014-06-15 14:46:21 <michagogo> aschildbach: you have the base-suite-arch.qcow2 files, right?
165 2014-06-15 14:46:45 <michagogo> wumpus: did you see that it looks like we match, but Gavin's OS X doesn't?
166 2014-06-15 14:47:16 <michagogo> aschildbach: do you also have files with the same name, but without the .qcow2?
167 2014-06-15 14:47:52 <aschildbach> I have base-precise-amd64/i386.qcow2
168 2014-06-15 14:48:02 <aschildbach> And target-precise-amd64/i386.qcow2
169 2014-06-15 14:49:29 <aschildbach> Don't worry about aschildbach_ -- I'm still here.
170 2014-06-15 14:49:42 <michagogo> But only qcow2, right?
171 2014-06-15 14:49:49 <aschildbach> Yes.
172 2014-06-15 14:49:52 <michagogo> Not without an extension also?
173 2014-06-15 14:49:53 <aschildbach> No other files.
174 2014-06-15 14:50:00 <michagogo> Okay, so you're using KVM, not lxc
175 2014-06-15 14:50:08 <wumpus> aschildbach: if you get the on-target error, you can usually find a more detailed error in var/build.log or var/install.log
176 2014-06-15 14:50:19 <wumpus> michagogo: no, haven't looked yet
177 2014-06-15 14:51:08 <aschildbach> I just rebooted and now it gets beyond the "Checking if target is up" point.
178 2014-06-15 14:51:09 <michagogo> wumpus: well, when I looked it appeared that that was the case -- I'm guessing it has to do with the unclean VM, but something else could be wrong
179 2014-06-15 14:53:07 <wumpus> michagogo: according to my gverify all three osx builds match
180 2014-06-15 14:53:25 <michagogo> Eh? Maybe I was looking at something wrong
181 2014-06-15 14:53:43 <michagogo> ACTION rechecks
182 2014-06-15 14:54:03 <wumpus> hm you're right, gavin's is different
183 2014-06-15 14:54:17 <michagogo> 150050f674bf1da503c5a165bf58e51154350b188b050d31e0e30c3379eb08d5 Bitcoin-Qt.dmg
184 2014-06-15 14:54:22 <michagogo> c1a8d18648b65e2e1c848884c65fda3a0f490812a02757681ac0deb9084944d4 Bitcoin-Qt.dmg
185 2014-06-15 14:57:03 <wumpus> oh, right, gverify doesn't tack on the -win/-osx automatically
186 2014-06-15 14:58:28 <michagogo> http://www.diffnow.com/?report=9nbpc <-- On the right here we can see what he has installed that we (I) don't
187 2014-06-15 14:59:01 <michagogo> ACTION wonders if he posted his dmg somewhere for comparison
188 2014-06-15 15:05:52 <aschildbach> strange, after rebooting not even the error msg appears
189 2014-06-15 15:06:08 <aschildbach> michagogo: Compared to 0.9.1, which deps do I have to rebuild?
190 2014-06-15 15:06:40 <michagogo> aschildbach: maybe compare https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.9.2/michagogo/bitcoin-build.assert to https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.9.1/michagogo/bitcoin-build.assert
191 2014-06-15 15:07:44 <michagogo> Looks like just deps
192 2014-06-15 15:07:56 <michagogo> (for win and linux. OS X is everything, because it wasn't around in 0.9.1)
193 2014-06-15 15:08:07 <michagogo> Oh, and there's also qt linux
194 2014-06-15 15:08:15 <michagogo> (which isn't really a full build of qt)
195 2014-06-15 15:10:34 <aschildbach> Yeah I'm just building qt
196 2014-06-15 15:11:06 <michagogo> So for OS X, it's everything, for Windows it's deps, and for Linux it's deps and qt
197 2014-06-15 15:11:22 <michagogo> (which is really just the headers and a couple tools, IIRC)
198 2014-06-15 15:12:10 <aschildbach> I assume I cannot build the OSX stuff on Linux, right?
199 2014-06-15 15:14:22 <michagogo> Yes, you can
200 2014-06-15 15:14:26 <michagogo> That's the whole point
201 2014-06-15 15:14:37 <michagogo> Linux, OS X, and Windows are all built in the Linux VMs
202 2014-06-15 15:15:00 <michagogo> Just one caveat for the OS X build -- you need an SDK from Apple
203 2014-06-15 15:15:15 <michagogo> And it requires a Mac to get at the moment
204 2014-06-15 15:15:34 <michagogo> (you download Xcode from their site, and then extract the SDK from there to copy to your Linux box)
205 2014-06-15 15:15:46 <michagogo> (Or someone can illegally give you a copy of it)
206 2014-06-15 15:21:34 <aschildbach> Well ok no mac for me.
207 2014-06-15 15:21:45 <aschildbach> But I will build Windows if that's possible.
208 2014-06-15 15:22:06 <aschildbach> michagogo: Problem, my qt-linux hashes are differnt from the ones listed in the release readme.
209 2014-06-15 15:22:13 <aschildbach> Is this a known problem?
210 2014-06-15 15:22:29 <michagogo> aschildbach: I think wumpus said it was fine -- SomeoneWeird was reporting the same iirc
211 2014-06-15 15:23:12 <aschildbach> So which one is right?
212 2014-06-15 15:23:30 <aschildbach> SomeoneWeird: ping
213 2014-06-15 15:24:33 <michagogo> aschildbach: it doesn't matter that it's different
214 2014-06-15 15:24:53 <michagogo> Assuming wumpus is right, it won't affect the end result
215 2014-06-15 15:29:39 <wumpus> aschildbach: yes that's a known issue, it's not a problem
216 2014-06-15 15:30:27 <wumpus> aschildbach: the qt-linux dependency hash is different based on the day it is built, this was fixed later but the commit didn't make it into 0.9.2, but it doesn't affect the end result
217 2014-06-15 15:36:49 <GAit> sipa: you pointed me to some proposal of yours (or perhaps just hosted by you) about an improvement over what BIP39 does to make brain wallets harder, I can't find the proposal anymore, do you have the link around?
218 2014-06-15 15:37:18 <GAit> you said you wanted to make it a BIP eventually
219 2014-06-15 15:56:46 <btc123> peter todd's treechains are the top post on /r/bitcoin
220 2014-06-15 15:57:06 <btc123> just wanted to stop by and see what peoples thoughts are on it?
221 2014-06-15 16:00:39 <GAit> btc123: as far as I understand it it can be said it has a lot of potential but also that it still is half-balked
222 2014-06-15 16:02:22 <btc123> i like the fact that someone can mine a low-diff chain and still receive a small coinbase reward, it removes the need for pools
223 2014-06-15 16:03:48 <btc123> on that note, i was a little shocked at Gavin's post -- he at bare mininmum could have suggested that miners move to P2Pool as an interim solution if they are worried. At best, the foundation should release a statement encouragingin people to do so....
224 2014-06-15 16:04:48 <wumpus> isn't it common knowledge for a long time people should move to P2Pool?
225 2014-06-15 16:05:01 <michagogo> ;;blocks
226 2014-06-15 16:05:02 <gribble> 305963
227 2014-06-15 16:05:03 <btc123> wumpus: suprisingly, no, it isn't
228 2014-06-15 16:05:06 <Apocalyptic> it's not for everyone wumpus
229 2014-06-15 16:05:11 <michagogo> ;;tslb
230 2014-06-15 16:05:14 <gribble> Time since last block: 5 minutes and 53 seconds
231 2014-06-15 16:05:17 <Apocalyptic> sometimes it helps to state the obvious
232 2014-06-15 16:05:22 <michagogo> Heh, for some reason my node thinks it's behind
233 2014-06-15 16:05:33 <wumpus> I mean this discussion has been going for what, four years?
234 2014-06-15 16:05:40 <michagogo> Oh, nvm
235 2014-06-15 16:05:49 <michagogo> Forgot I was messing with the system clock
236 2014-06-15 16:05:56 <dsnrk> wumpus: miners still think joining the biggest pool gets them the most profit..
237 2014-06-15 16:05:58 <Apocalyptic> discussion among devs and technical people does not reach all the miners
238 2014-06-15 16:06:15 <btc123> wumpus: and if the intelligence of these miners is evaluated by their decisions to purchase cloud-mining CEX.io contracts that are guaranteed to lose them money, -- then you can be rest assured people have no fucking clue
239 2014-06-15 16:06:46 <Apocalyptic> anyway such statement coming from Gavin cannot hurt
240 2014-06-15 16:06:49 <wumpus> anyhow: yes, you should switch to P2Pool for mining
241 2014-06-15 16:07:15 <wumpus> today!
242 2014-06-15 16:07:38 <dsnrk> p2pool is a pain to run really. I'm wasting a whole box that could be doing other things.
243 2014-06-15 16:07:42 <btc123> Apocalyptic: which is why i'm wondering why he didn't do it. lack of leadership imo.
244 2014-06-15 16:07:54 <wumpus> Gavin isn't your leader
245 2014-06-15 16:07:55 <btc123> dsnrk: there are free gateway nodes
246 2014-06-15 16:08:09 <btc123> wumpus: leadership != lader
247 2014-06-15 16:08:12 <wumpus> a distributed network doesn't have a leader and it doesn't need a leader
248 2014-06-15 16:08:13 <btc123> leader*
249 2014-06-15 16:08:22 <btc123> you don't need to be a leader to display leadership
250 2014-06-15 16:08:47 <dsnrk> btc123: I'm not going to give my hashpower to anybody running a p2pool node. how do I know they're not going to steal or skim?
251 2014-06-15 16:09:10 <btc123> displaying leadership, however, is good for everyone if the result is that people switch to P2Pools. Gavin has the ability to make that happen. Not making a statement shows a lack of leadership for someone in his position at the foundation.
252 2014-06-15 16:10:03 <hearn> dsnrk: how expensive is that box?
253 2014-06-15 16:10:07 <btc123> dsnrk: alright, i'll set you up a vps for a year. cost will be a fraction of the money you lose everytime the price crashes when a pool goes to 50%
254 2014-06-15 16:10:17 <hearn> dsnrk: i mean, surely your asic rigs are more expensive than the computer generating the work
255 2014-06-15 16:10:25 <btc123> bithost.io and chunkhost.com -- $5 a month vps's
256 2014-06-15 16:10:49 <dsnrk> hearn: amusingly enough, no, the rig controlling them is worth more than the ASIC hardware.
257 2014-06-15 16:11:10 <hearn> btc123: i've started talking to saivann and david harding, the guys behind the bitcoin.org developer guide, about maybe creating a mining section on bitcoin.org
258 2014-06-15 16:11:13 <btc123> bithost.io even has an image with bitcoind fully loaded. setup time is mininmal and you only need to do it once
259 2014-06-15 16:11:15 <hearn> where we could put "official" advice
260 2014-06-15 16:11:27 <btc123> hearn: that would be great!
261 2014-06-15 16:11:28 <hearn> tips, news, etc
262 2014-06-15 16:11:46 <dsnrk> btc123: I can't imagine the latency would be at all favourable for me.
263 2014-06-15 16:11:50 <buZz> official tips? :D
264 2014-06-15 16:11:52 <hearn> btc123: well it needs someone to volunteer basically. as none of the rest of us know much about mining. plus there's everyone is currently maxed with their existing projects
265 2014-06-15 16:12:07 <hearn> btc123: we'll probably kick the idea around a bit more and then maybe i'll make a call for volunteers
266 2014-06-15 16:12:23 <btc123> hearn: you might want to talk to the guys in #bithost -- i bet they'd be willing to put up ubuntu images with a p2pool already setup, with 1-click installs
267 2014-06-15 16:12:27 <hearn> dsnrk: how many hashes/sec are you doing then? i thought asics were costing thousands of dollars at a minimum
268 2014-06-15 16:12:36 <btc123> hearn: i'd be happy to help, i usually idle in here
269 2014-06-15 16:12:51 <dsnrk> hearn: you can pick up a new S1 (180GH/s) shipped to your door for about $200US.
270 2014-06-15 16:12:57 <btc123> hearn: he's making a joke -- they depreciate so quickly
271 2014-06-15 16:13:16 <btc123> my avalon batch 1&2's are already scrap metal
272 2014-06-15 16:13:23 <hearn> see, i said i didn't know much about mining :)
273 2014-06-15 16:13:28 <dsnrk> hearn: I'm pulling about 1TH all told. the rig running p2pool is worth about double that.
274 2014-06-15 16:13:55 <hearn> you mean the computer? it shouldn't require a very powerful computer, i'd hope ... it's just running p2pool + core, right?
275 2014-06-15 16:14:13 <hearn> btc123: could you join https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoin-documentation and jump in? that's where the existing dev guide work is done
276 2014-06-15 16:15:25 <dsnrk> hearn: it's overpowered for the job, but you really need some horsepower to run p2pool. p2pool chews a terrible lot of memory. compare it with a small ARM processor board that could handle GBT just fine and you can see why more people don't use it.
277 2014-06-15 16:15:37 <hearn> because it's written in python?
278 2014-06-15 16:15:54 <buZz> because its written in academic style
279 2014-06-15 16:16:03 <buZz> which is horrible, but gets the work done ;)
280 2014-06-15 16:18:53 <btc123> hearn: any thoughts on treechains (from peter, your favorite person ;)?
281 2014-06-15 16:19:16 <hearn> i only scan read the proposal. that's the one where he wants to have some complicated sharding scheme?
282 2014-06-15 16:19:22 <dsnrk> hearn: if I could run the thing on a small dedicated board like a cubieboard or odroid I wouldn't care so much. it is fairly resource intensive though, and the difficulty is sky high. the minimum share diff is 1.6M at the moment.
283 2014-06-15 16:19:33 <maaku> i've thought that a p2pool rewritten in erlang would be much more performant
284 2014-06-15 16:19:35 <hearn> dsnrk: right. there need to be multiple p2pool networks
285 2014-06-15 16:19:40 <btc123> hearn: yeah, thats it
286 2014-06-15 16:19:42 <maaku> i don't know where we'd find someone to do that though
287 2014-06-15 16:20:23 <maaku> treechains + p2pool would solve the share size problem though
288 2014-06-15 16:20:31 <btc123> hearn: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2872z8/peter_todds_treechains_and_the_end_of_mining_pools/
289 2014-06-15 16:20:42 <hearn> btc123: honestly, i didn't think about it much so i don't have a useful opinion. the whole thing seemed rooted in the idea that bitcoin doesn't scale, an idea peter has been pushing for years and i don't agree with. but at any rate, scalability is the least of our concerns right now ....
290 2014-06-15 16:20:45 <maaku> use treechains for the p2pool share chain
291 2014-06-15 16:21:21 <btc123> peter has lots of fanboys on reddit, but he also does come across as abbrasive unfortunately, because i think he has good insight to offer
292 2014-06-15 16:22:01 <hearn> it sounds like the problem with p2pool is not so much the current structure, as an inefficient implementation and the fact that p2pool needs to auto-split, amoeba style, to keep share difficulty under control
293 2014-06-15 16:22:11 <btc123> hearn: i'd agree -- scalability wil be a concern a year from now if more companies add it
294 2014-06-15 16:22:12 <maaku> btc123: tree chains (on bitcoin) come with horrible tradeoffs -- e.g. lack of SPV mode
295 2014-06-15 16:22:13 <hearn> also i'd like to see more info and tutorials on how to use getblocktemplate with local selection of block contents
296 2014-06-15 16:22:18 <hearn> maybe such tutorials already exist!
297 2014-06-15 16:22:26 <hearn> but i don't seem to be able to find good info on them
298 2014-06-15 16:22:58 <hearn> btc123: no i doubt it. not unless we find a way to incentivise bitcoin usage by *buyers* not just sellers
299 2014-06-15 16:23:16 <hearn> ACTION has some ideas on this topic
300 2014-06-15 16:23:23 <wumpus> in a way that's good, you'd say an inefficient implementation is easier to improve than structural problems
301 2014-06-15 16:23:38 <btc123> buyers meaning?
302 2014-06-15 16:23:44 <hearn> but even so - quadrupling usage, traffic wise, would be an amazing accomplishment, and still only get us up to our entirely self imposed limit
303 2014-06-15 16:23:49 <hearn> buyers meaning ... people who buy things
304 2014-06-15 16:24:01 <dsnrk> hearn: well as it stands I've already set up my GBT proxy so I can get away from p2pool. I'm generally fairly accepting of crappy software but it's just taking up too much space for me.
305 2014-06-15 16:24:05 <hearn> lots of companies are signing up to accept bitcoin right now because it's a win/win situation for them. buyers, not so much.
306 2014-06-15 16:24:13 <maaku> btc123: treechains is not the only solution out there though. there is also e.g. (u)txo commitments, which allow storageless mining
307 2014-06-15 16:24:16 <btc123> hearn: egifter offers 6% off from walmart and amazon i think
308 2014-06-15 16:24:18 <hearn> dsnrk: how does your proxy work?
309 2014-06-15 16:24:20 <maaku> without giving up SPV mode
310 2014-06-15 16:24:48 <btc123> interesting, where can i find more info on that?
311 2014-06-15 16:25:01 <hearn> btc123: yes indeed, but in the past small %age savings on each tx were not enough to shift the boat away from credit cards en masse. however, that said, we have another shot at it :) i got bitpay and coinbase to agree to implement a new BIP70 extension to let wallets know about and therefore add up/record the size of the discounts users are getting
312 2014-06-15 16:25:22 <hearn> so wallet apps can show you how much you saved by using bitcoin and maybe even suggest things you could buy with the saved money :)
313 2014-06-15 16:25:30 <btc123> hearn: brilliant -- i like it
314 2014-06-15 16:25:45 <dsnrk> hearn: small but reasonably powerful ARM processor board with BFGminer set up to proxy stratum<>GBT with eligius. means my antminers can get the connection they need (stratum) but I can still control things a bit better. I've not tried it under load yet though. if it fails I'll just go back to a normal pool with stratum.
315 2014-06-15 16:26:17 <hearn> ok. are you selecting your own transactions? or just taking whatever eligius gives
316 2014-06-15 16:26:46 <dsnrk> haven't got to that bit yet. I intend to if the board doesn't set on fire under the load.
317 2014-06-15 16:26:55 <btc123> hearn: bitpay/coinbase should also tell merchants to follow best practices -- telling their customers that they'll save x% by paying with bitcoin
318 2014-06-15 16:27:25 <dsnrk> (currently I reject all transactions that spend uncompressed keys.. because why not?)
319 2014-06-15 16:28:55 <michagogo> aschildbach: Nice, thanks.
320 2014-06-15 16:29:03 <michagogo> (looks like a match for those 2, at least)
321 2014-06-15 16:29:17 <aschildbach> Sure, I'll do what I can (-:
322 2014-06-15 16:29:54 <aschildbach> I wish this gitian process would be more like a "make". Run once, do everything automatically.
323 2014-06-15 16:30:59 <maaku> aschildbach: I made a PR for that once. got rejected
324 2014-06-15 16:31:06 <hearn> dsnrk: er .... why not?
325 2014-06-15 16:31:15 <hearn> dsnrk: because if you drop them from your mempool that makes you into a tool for double spending
326 2014-06-15 16:31:27 <michagogo> aschildbach: Yeah, the whole process could use improvements
327 2014-06-15 16:31:39 <michagogo> e.g. telling it to put the output files somewhere specific
328 2014-06-15 16:31:41 <hearn> dsnrk: you can accept them into ram and not include them into blocks, but that's kind of dumb.... better to push for banning of them during a forking change one day
329 2014-06-15 16:31:56 <michagogo> Gitian's all ruby and bash, so...
330 2014-06-15 16:31:58 <hearn> btc123: coinbase at least already s
331 2014-06-15 16:32:01 <hearn> oops, already is
332 2014-06-15 16:32:04 <michagogo> feel free to fix it :P
333 2014-06-15 16:32:08 <netg_> AFAIK its not allowed for an merchant to promote other payment methods over credit cards (at least in germany its forbidden in the acceptance contracts with the payment service provider, merchants will get warnings, penalties or even lose card acceptance if they do)
334 2014-06-15 16:32:29 <hearn> netg_: yes. in the USA those contracts have been struck down by the courts however.
335 2014-06-15 16:32:36 <maaku> netg_: that would be illegal here
336 2014-06-15 16:32:48 <hearn> not sure what the current status is in europe. once there's real competition i think we'll start to see regulatory action on that kind of thing as it's so blatantly anti-competitive
337 2014-06-15 16:33:09 <btc123> hearn: long live AMERICA land of the free ;)
338 2014-06-15 16:33:17 <dsnrk> hearn: the chance of my p2pool node solving a block is hilariously low. I would bet against me ever solving a block in fact. ,,(gentime 1000000)
339 2014-06-15 16:33:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 11756551916.9, is 1 year, 31 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 19 minutes, and 36 seconds
340 2014-06-15 16:33:22 <hearn> heh
341 2014-06-15 16:33:48 <hearn> dsnrk: good point. though i guess it's the principle that counts? :)
342 2014-06-15 16:33:50 <kadoban> hearn: If he rejects spends of uncompressed keys, wouldn't he also reject double-spends of the same or does it not work like that?
343 2014-06-15 16:34:14 <maaku> kadoban: could be multiple inputs
344 2014-06-15 16:34:23 <maaku> some compressed, some not
345 2014-06-15 16:34:33 <kadoban> Ahh, yes. Thanks
346 2014-06-15 16:34:41 <dsnrk> hearn: maybe. it does annoy me that pretty much no client uses compressed keys.
347 2014-06-15 16:34:47 <hearn> dsnrk: AFAIK they all do?
348 2014-06-15 16:34:51 <dsnrk> haha, nope
349 2014-06-15 16:34:51 <GAit> kadoban: so including an ucompressed gives an edge in double spending?
350 2014-06-15 16:34:54 <hearn> dsnrk: bitcoinj has been using compressed keys for ages
351 2014-06-15 16:34:58 <hearn> dsnrk: bitcoin core too
352 2014-06-15 16:35:04 <hearn> which wallets don't use point compression?
353 2014-06-15 16:35:05 <dsnrk> hearn: Electrum doesn't, bc.i doesn't
354 2014-06-15 16:35:24 <hearn> electrum doesn't? oh, huh. that surprises me. it's usually pretty advanced.
355 2014-06-15 16:35:30 <hearn> however it's certainly not "pretty much no client"
356 2014-06-15 16:35:44 <dsnrk> I honestly didn't think MultiBit used compressed keys either.
357 2014-06-15 16:35:52 <hearn> yes, it has done for a long time, as does hive, android wallet, etc
358 2014-06-15 16:36:02 <hearn> so are you sure your info about other wallets is right? :)
359 2014-06-15 16:36:25 <dsnrk> yes, I exported private keys from both and looked at the version byte.
360 2014-06-15 16:37:05 <maaku> dsnrk: once you create a key, it'll always be compressed or uncompressed. how old was the key you exported?
361 2014-06-15 16:37:33 <dsnrk> both brand new, I don't use either client.
362 2014-06-15 16:38:07 <GAit> dsnrk: was the nope to me?
363 2014-06-15 16:38:35 <dsnrk> hearn: I have verified that I was incorrect for MultiBit.
364 2014-06-15 16:39:00 <dsnrk> GAit: no, I never checked yours, I assumed it would be right.
365 2014-06-15 16:39:27 <hearn> i hope one day we can introduce a transaction version 2 spec and fix a lot of these small things
366 2014-06-15 16:39:57 <dsnrk> just downloaded the latest Electrum, can confirm it does not use compressed keys. neither does Armory.
367 2014-06-15 16:40:01 <hearn> if there's a v2 with a clear list of requirements then supporting it becomes a "project"
368 2014-06-15 16:40:12 <GAit> hearn: we still need to allow old tx with nlocktime at the very least
369 2014-06-15 16:41:08 <hearn> dsnrk: yes that's disappointing. however, except for b.i those wallets do not have huge userbases: http://media.coindesk.com/2014/05/Screen-Shot-2014-05-28-at-11.59.49-AM.png
370 2014-06-15 16:41:09 <dsnrk> Electrum, bc.i, Armory all don't use compressed keys. surely that's a large portion of all spends.
371 2014-06-15 16:41:15 <hearn> GAit: sure, txv1 would still work
372 2014-06-15 16:41:44 <hearn> dsnrk: i don't know many people who use armory except for specialised cases, because of its resource usage. electrum user figures are IIRC about 15x lower than multibit
373 2014-06-15 16:42:12 <hearn> dsnrk: but it'd be interesting to gather stats. i suspect whether dice sites and pool payout software use them dominates all other factors.
374 2014-06-15 16:43:52 <dsnrk> hearn: I'm not sure I really have much faith in CoinDesks surveys.
375 2014-06-15 16:44:11 <hearn> it's not based on survey data but rather self reported user numbers, based on e.g. accounts registered and server pings
376 2014-06-15 16:44:15 <hearn> and downloads
377 2014-06-15 16:47:14 <dsnrk> well I don't know then.
378 2014-06-15 16:48:08 <dsnrk> at any rate there's still a crazy number of uncompressed outputs when there's really no need for it to happen at all. it's optimisation for almost free.
379 2014-06-15 16:48:52 <hearn> yeah. the graph i linked shows user numbers (actually downloads/wallet openings by users, not quite the same), but tx traffic can be dominated by only a handful, e.g. dice sites
380 2014-06-15 16:49:14 <hearn> over time what i'm hoping we'll see is that people consolidate wallets around a handful of well maintained libraries
381 2014-06-15 16:49:23 <hearn> one of which i hope will be bitcoinj (it's going that way at the moment)
382 2014-06-15 16:49:33 <hearn> then a lot of these fiddly details will get handled and wallet authors can focus on differentiating features
383 2014-06-15 16:50:36 <hearn> btw just to put bitcoin's low need for scalability tricks in perspective: http://crypto-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/0cd60__N9NStPw.png
384 2014-06-15 16:50:39 <daybyter> more java libs please...
385 2014-06-15 16:51:32 <hearn> eventually we might want to get more aggressive about hard-forking out suboptimal behaviour. but we can't really do much when miners don't even upgrade to 0.9 and don't discuss what block policies they have
386 2014-06-15 16:51:35 <hearn> fixing that has to come first
387 2014-06-15 16:52:12 <hearn> anyway. time to play games for a bit. bitcoin is now work, so, not gonna do any more this weekend
388 2014-06-15 16:53:22 <daybyter> play a coin game and combine play and work... :-)
389 2014-06-15 16:58:55 <chichov> could it be that many miners skip/ignore transactions with OP_RETURN outputs?
390 2014-06-15 17:27:01 <aschildbach> Is the biteasy dev around? I can't remember his IRC nick.
391 2014-06-15 17:27:47 <aschildbach> hearn: I was already going to ask if you decided to not do Bitcoin stuff on Sundays (-:
392 2014-06-15 17:33:18 <hearn> aschildbach: damethos
393 2014-06-15 17:33:32 <aschildbach> Thanks
394 2014-06-15 17:58:01 <ShawnLeary> Happy Father's Day!
395 2014-06-15 19:02:42 <sipa>
396 2014-06-15 19:17:50 <elichai2> hey, after how much blocks it's need to be seen in 'getinfo'? ('testnet-in-a-box')
397 2014-06-15 19:33:16 <christophe> ;seen jgarzik
398 2014-06-15 19:34:31 <christophe> ;;seen jgarzik
399 2014-06-15 19:34:32 <gribble> jgarzik was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 16 hours, 46 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <jgarzik> Rather than rawtx, perhaps the tool should be "bitcoin-tx" to be a bit more friendly to the global /usr/bin binary namespace.
400 2014-06-15 20:11:37 <jgarzik> christophe, idle or not, I am omnipresent
401 2014-06-15 20:14:34 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lold
402 2014-06-15 20:24:29 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, have you attempted to add support for stealth addresses to bitcoin core?
403 2014-06-15 20:42:35 <pigeons> are "stealth addresses" compatible with sendmany/multiple outputs with a "standard" (1 OP_RETURN) transaction?
404 2014-06-15 20:44:19 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, you need 1 OP_RETURN output per output
405 2014-06-15 20:44:34 <phantomcircuit> that wasn't very clear but i think you'll get it...
406 2014-06-15 20:45:02 <pigeons> yeah. so really one transaction per stealth address unless you have someone to mine them?
407 2014-06-15 20:45:58 <pigeons> so in some cases potentially trading a little size for some privacy i guess
408 2014-06-15 20:50:37 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, i suspect there is a way to change that
409 2014-06-15 20:51:00 <phantomcircuit> but iirc you cant use the same parameter for multiple public keys
410 2014-06-15 21:07:29 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: not yet - I still need to get a chance to sit down for a day or two and finish off my stealth-address-reference-implementation
411 2014-06-15 21:08:13 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: for sending though it should be pretty easy; receiving harder
412 2014-06-15 21:08:48 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, im only interested in sending
413 2014-06-15 21:08:51 <phantomcircuit> (for now)
414 2014-06-15 21:09:07 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: cool, that makes it easier
415 2014-06-15 21:09:07 <phantomcircuit> well except i guess receiving would have to be easy also
416 2014-06-15 21:09:32 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, im thinking a shared web wallet in which there is a maximum balance and the difference is automatically returned
417 2014-06-15 21:09:35 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: receiving for a full node isn't all that bad, and bitcoin core's "just a bunch of keys" wallet would make live easy
418 2014-06-15 21:09:42 <phantomcircuit> but wouldn't want to use a static return address for that
419 2014-06-15 21:09:44 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: oh, interesting, what for?
420 2014-06-15 21:09:55 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, POC
421 2014-06-15 21:10:00 <petertodd> ?
422 2014-06-15 21:10:17 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, off chain transactions for trivial value transfers
423 2014-06-15 21:10:22 <phantomcircuit> ie you want to buy coffee
424 2014-06-15 21:10:29 <petertodd> ah I see, that's pretty reasonable
425 2014-06-15 21:11:24 <petertodd> note btw that micropayment channels for those types of services appear to always be the better solution, in that you might as well setup a uC payment channel between you and the service, and give them micropayments as you get them to send others moeny on your behalf
426 2014-06-15 21:11:35 <petertodd> (always modulo the time value of money that is)
427 2014-06-15 21:13:02 <phantomcircuit> *** Error in `bitcoin/src/bitcoind': munmap_chunk(): invalid pointer: 0x0000000000a2e430 ***
428 2014-06-15 21:13:02 <phantomcircuit> [Thread 0x7fffaffff700 (LWP 8934) exited]
429 2014-06-15 21:13:16 <phantomcircuit> i wonder which thread that is
430 2014-06-15 21:20:03 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the issue there is that the business is then dependent on customers being up/active to send bitcoins to others on the businesses behalf
431 2014-06-15 21:20:18 <phantomcircuit> that might work at scale, but boot strapping it would be difficult
432 2014-06-15 21:20:32 <phantomcircuit> (or maybe im wrong on that)
433 2014-06-15 21:27:27 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I had similar feedback from another business looking at doing micropayment channels too - it's an interesting business problem that's not unlike a bank
434 2014-06-15 21:27:46 <petertodd> dunno what's the right solution there, basically a cost of security vs. tx fees
435 2014-06-15 21:28:41 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, lets say everybody in the us leaves $100 on some micro payments service, which wont even let them leave more than that
436 2014-06-15 21:29:12 <lezzit> does nayone here work at twitter
437 2014-06-15 21:29:13 <phantomcircuit> that's about $30b
438 2014-06-15 21:29:16 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yup
439 2014-06-15 21:29:24 <phantomcircuit> that's a pretty small bank
440 2014-06-15 21:29:32 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: lol, very true!
441 2014-06-15 21:29:49 <petertodd> and you've still saved a lot of fes
442 2014-06-15 21:29:50 <skinnkavaj> Someone update update bitcoin.org and replace "decentralized" with "controlled by a few mining pool operators"?
443 2014-06-15 21:29:51 <petertodd> *fees
444 2014-06-15 21:30:02 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yup
445 2014-06-15 21:30:04 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: heh, good idea
446 2014-06-15 21:31:49 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: would make for an interesting business model too, as while the customers can have total security because it's u-payment channels, you would also have depositors giving up their bitcoins in exchange for a cut of the tx fees saved
447 2014-06-15 21:32:34 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: equally of course someone running the service is basically making money off their bitcoins
448 2014-06-15 21:33:27 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yes
449 2014-06-15 21:37:56 <paavo> petertodd: when did you start working on dev team?
450 2014-06-15 21:38:04 <paavo> *paid
451 2014-06-15 21:38:12 <christophe> jgarzik: Good to know. I was just wondering what the state of https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin is. Is it stable or close enough to it that I can build a project on top? For now it's just an experiment, but ideally I don't want to rewrite it if it proves worthwhile.
452 2014-06-15 21:38:34 <sipa> wumpus: feel like merging bitcoin/secp256k1 #28? don't have access to my gpg key here
453 2014-06-15 21:38:52 <petertodd> paavo: hard to define - I got my first contract to do bitcoin related stuff with the litecoin audit last year, quit my day job last feburary
454 2014-06-15 21:39:39 <petertodd> paavo: oh, and actually, even earlier than that was a bounty from jdillion that I collected
455 2014-06-15 21:40:29 <paavo> ah just curious. seems you were very vocal about selling your coins. was wondering if you had experienced any of the difficult times in the past hard forks etc
456 2014-06-15 21:40:49 <petertodd> paavo: well I've owned bitcoins for quite a bit longer than that
457 2014-06-15 21:41:12 <sipa> there have not been "hard forks" :)
458 2014-06-15 21:41:13 <sipa> (just one)
459 2014-06-15 21:41:14 <Luke-Jr> petertodd is vocal about selling bitcoins? huh?
460 2014-06-15 21:41:33 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, there have been many afaik.. just not many recently ;P
461 2014-06-15 21:41:35 <paavo> well i meant hard-fork other 51% moments
462 2014-06-15 21:41:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i know of only one
463 2014-06-15 21:41:44 <paavo> various panic moments
464 2014-06-15 21:41:56 <paavo> not any particular moment
465 2014-06-15 21:41:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm thinking back when it was just Satoshi and Sirius
466 2014-06-15 21:42:12 <petertodd> paavo: 51%'s haven't been worrying before - the pools didn't own much of their hashing power, ghash.io has physical control of 25% of the network
467 2014-06-15 21:42:15 <sipa> Luke-Jr: even then, i know of none (but i don't know the entire history, so it's possible)
468 2014-06-15 21:42:38 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: actually if you look at the early day stuff they're almost all soft-forks
469 2014-06-15 21:42:48 <paavo> luke-jr: he posted a front page r/bitcoin post about selling 50% of his coins
470 2014-06-15 21:42:56 <sipa> the op_return bug was a softfork in any case
471 2014-06-15 21:43:21 <petertodd> paavo: keep in mind my financial situation is different than many... not too many people have 100% of their income from bitcoin-related stuff
472 2014-06-15 21:43:23 <Luke-Jr> paavo: he can't make it front page. that's reddit's fault :p
473 2014-06-15 21:43:33 <cfields> wumpus: any chance you're still around?
474 2014-06-15 21:44:05 <paavo> i know, im simply stating that vocalizing personal financial decisions carries weight among devs
475 2014-06-15 21:44:14 <paavo> it would be like obama saying "hes cashing out his usd"
476 2014-06-15 21:44:28 <paavo> he doesnt need to announce
477 2014-06-15 21:44:40 <SomeoneWeird> Eh
478 2014-06-15 21:44:56 <sipa> i don't see why you would want to publicly announce what you're doing with your money, unless you want to influence what others do
479 2014-06-15 21:44:57 <petertodd> paavo: anyway, not a -dev topic
480 2014-06-15 21:45:03 <sipa> indeed
481 2014-06-15 21:45:13 <paavo> im not bashing petertodd, im sorry if that seems like attacking
482 2014-06-15 21:45:16 <Apocalyptic> i'm with sipa here
483 2014-06-15 21:45:36 <petertodd> sipa: indeed, although I have had legal advice warning me that it can be construed as insider trading too, but end-of-topic
484 2014-06-15 21:45:44 <paavo> just was odd that you would choose this particular moment to vocalize. perhaps you saw a need to point out the urgency of ghash's situation
485 2014-06-15 21:46:37 <paavo> and i completely understand not keeping all your wealth in bitcoin, that would be very risky