1 2014-08-04 00:00:21 <sipa> goldstar: if you're using bitcoind, run it with -testnet
  2 2014-08-04 00:00:35 <E-Rage> goldstar: it's trivial, just use testnet=1 in bitcoin.conf or in params and your bitcoind will start using the testnet
  3 2014-08-04 00:01:08 <goldstar> thanks guys; and in terns of coins, how would it work?
  4 2014-08-04 00:01:13 <goldstar> terms*
  5 2014-08-04 00:01:24 <sipa> can you be more specific?
  6 2014-08-04 00:01:28 <E-Rage> goldstar: the same - if you need some coins quickly there's a few faucets around
  7 2014-08-04 00:01:47 <goldstar> thanks :)
  8 2014-08-04 00:01:49 <E-Rage> I don't know how practical it is for one node to mine on testnet
  9 2014-08-04 00:01:53 <E-Rage> goldstar: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet
 10 2014-08-04 00:02:13 <goldstar> thanks, just what I was looking for
 11 2014-08-04 00:03:08 <E-Rage> yeah, then you can google 'testnet faucet' to find a couple
 12 2014-08-04 00:11:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: 32 bit binary is fine for me too.
 13 2014-08-04 00:39:11 <earlz> is there any estimate of how long it'll be before bitcoin 0.10 reaches release candidate?
 14 2014-08-04 00:56:21 <sipa> earlz: not yet
 15 2014-08-04 00:56:35 <earlz> so probably a few months out at least?
 16 2014-08-04 00:58:18 <sipa> if 0.10 goes without headers-first sync, maybe sooner
 17 2014-08-04 00:59:51 <earlz> headers-first being download blockchain headers first?
 18 2014-08-04 01:00:11 <ywecur> Might be a stupid question, but why name the next version 0.10 instead of 1.0?
 19 2014-08-04 01:00:18 <earlz> lol agreed
 20 2014-08-04 01:00:26 <earlz> 0.10 always causes confusion
 21 2014-08-04 01:00:48 <ywecur> Yeah it makes no sense to me
 22 2014-08-04 01:01:26 <earlz> I assume the proper wayt o version it semantically is to only bump to 1.0 when there is a hardfork.. but there have been forks before without bumping it so ehhh
 23 2014-08-04 01:01:50 <sipa> 1.0 == software is mature
 24 2014-08-04 01:01:54 <sipa> we're far from there
 25 2014-08-04 01:02:22 <ywecur> What constitutes mature software?
 26 2014-08-04 01:02:37 <earlz> bitcoin isn't production ready? lol
 27 2014-08-04 01:02:50 <sipa> earlz: i consider it experimental yes :)
 28 2014-08-04 01:03:03 <sipa> i never understood why people want to actually spend money on it :D
 29 2014-08-04 01:03:24 <earlz> just give me a few of these bitcoin tokens. I need some for testing and testnet tokens won't work :D
 30 2014-08-04 01:03:32 <earlz> afterall, it's just experimental software lol
 31 2014-08-04 01:03:46 <sipa> we have this annoying thing called an economy that makes it very hard to actually experiment still, but hey, it has upsides too
 32 2014-08-04 01:04:18 <earlz> but yea, it is quite scary how much money is in bitcoin, while bitcoin itself is only a few years old
 33 2014-08-04 01:04:30 <earlz> it's even scarying looking at altcoins lol
 34 2014-08-04 01:04:41 <sipa> i do agree that 0.10 somehow feels much less advanced than 0.9
 35 2014-08-04 01:04:52 <earlz> fast syncing sounds awesome :)
 36 2014-08-04 01:05:03 <ywecur> Are there any major innovations left to be added at this point or is maintenence mainly what's left?
 37 2014-08-04 01:05:04 <sipa> but that's just because we incorrectly see 0.9 as a decimal, rather than a dotted sequence of numbers
 38 2014-08-04 01:05:32 <ywecur> exactly
 39 2014-08-04 01:05:44 <sipa> ywecur: i think most of the actual innovations will be things in the ecosystem, not necessarily in the reference software
 40 2014-08-04 01:06:01 <sipa> and development of the network and its protocol rules also happens somewhat independently of the development of the client software
 41 2014-08-04 01:06:22 <sipa> but yes, there is a lot left to do... efficiency improvements, dos protection, resource management, ...
 42 2014-08-04 01:06:41 <earlz> My understanding is a lot of innovations are not intended to ever be implemented in the reference client
 43 2014-08-04 01:06:42 <sipa> there are many features to be experimented with, like more featureful scripting languages
 44 2014-08-04 01:07:01 <sipa> depends what they are about
 45 2014-08-04 01:07:51 <ywecur> With floating fees coming about now, do you guys see any future for micro transactions in bitcoin?
 46 2014-08-04 01:08:15 <sipa> bitcoin (on chain) doesn't work for microtransactions
 47 2014-08-04 01:08:23 <earlz> a turing complete scripting language I still think would be fun
 48 2014-08-04 01:08:35 <sipa> it would be horror, i think
 49 2014-08-04 01:08:36 <earlz> floating fees?
 50 2014-08-04 01:09:11 <sipa> dos protection and economic incentives for node running turn very hard when you can't reason about limitations anymore (which turing completeness implies)
 51 2014-08-04 01:09:38 <sipa> floating fees = the network tries to determine what fees are necessary for network propagation and getting mined
 52 2014-08-04 01:09:43 <earlz> ah
 53 2014-08-04 01:09:43 <sipa> rather than being hardcoded
 54 2014-08-04 01:09:53 <earlz> doesn't that complicate services quite a bit?
 55 2014-08-04 01:10:09 <sipa> they'll have to live with it at some point
 56 2014-08-04 01:10:15 <sipa> better now than later
 57 2014-08-04 01:10:44 <earlz> Not to alt-talk, but I'm a part in a coin that tried fees done on a percentage, rather than a static number
 58 2014-08-04 01:10:54 <earlz> exchanges and many other services had a lot of problems with it
 59 2014-08-04 01:10:55 <sipa> that makes no sense
 60 2014-08-04 01:11:11 <sipa> the cost to the network is not proportional to the value transferred
 61 2014-08-04 01:11:33 <earlz> yea, I see that now heh, and the idea seems to have failed anyway
 62 2014-08-04 01:11:51 <sipa> in bitcoin, fees have always been proportional to transaction size
 63 2014-08-04 01:11:54 <earlz> but either way, having fees that differ significantly makes things complicated
 64 2014-08-04 01:12:08 <sipa> well it's inevitable that things will get more complicated there
 65 2014-08-04 01:12:11 <ywecur> Wow that's to bad. I mean I get that the blockchain is a public resource but I'd hate to see more power go to centralized companies like Coinbase because of it
 66 2014-08-04 01:12:25 <gmaxwell> ywecur: that doesn't follow
 67 2014-08-04 01:12:30 <sipa> ywecur: there are several in-between solutions
 68 2014-08-04 01:12:31 <gmaxwell> also this is now far offtopic for this channel
 69 2014-08-04 01:13:55 <earlz> how far can the fees vary with this new fee mechanism?
 70 2014-08-04 01:14:37 <gmaxwell> earlz: all the floating fees stuff does is gives the wallet advice about recent fees and what would be required to be competative with them.
 71 2014-08-04 01:14:58 <ywecur> gmaxwell: Sorry boss :)
 72 2014-08-04 01:16:13 <earlz> I mean how much can they vary? Like would it ever go to 10 times the minimum relay feeor some such?
 73 2014-08-04 01:16:23 <earlz> or does it stay fairly low no matter what?
 74 2014-08-04 01:17:29 <sipa> earlz: if necessary, it will certainly need to go 10x the minimum relay fee
 75 2014-08-04 01:17:43 <sipa> it depends on the ecosystem
 76 2014-08-04 01:18:57 <earlz> Well that's the thing. Exchanges and such commonly charge for fees by using a rough estimate and a float. So like they calc that on average, fees are 0.0002.. So, that's what they charge, sometimes is 0.0001 and sometimes it's 0.0003 of course
 77 2014-08-04 01:19:24 <earlz> would such a floating fee structure make that unworkable though, by having a large amount of variance each block?
 78 2014-08-04 01:19:29 <earlz> or each transaction?
 79 2014-08-04 01:19:53 <gmaxwell> earlz: the floating fees doesn't change the network behavior
 80 2014-08-04 01:20:03 <gmaxwell> someone could continue to happily apply a static fee
 81 2014-08-04 01:20:24 <earlz> so it's basically if you don't want that, just don't upgrade to 0.10?
 82 2014-08-04 01:20:25 <gmaxwell> (not to say that such a fee would be competative, but thats true regardless of the floating fee stuff)
 83 2014-08-04 01:20:30 <gmaxwell> ...
 84 2014-08-04 01:20:37 <gmaxwell> no just change the setting
 85 2014-08-04 01:20:58 <sipa> or use a different wallet (almost everyone does already anyway)
 86 2014-08-04 01:20:59 <earlz> yea if they were using old static fees though as well, they might get huge transaction lag or other such problems
 87 2014-08-04 01:21:03 <earlz> hmm
 88 2014-08-04 01:21:15 <sipa> maybe the floating fees grow into a policy on the network that multiple wallets implement
 89 2014-08-04 01:21:16 <gmaxwell> earlz: prior to the floating fee stuff the default in bitcoin-qt was _no fee_. The floating fee stuff just adds a market estimation function, and makes the default a market fee.
 90 2014-08-04 01:21:18 <earlz> tough problem
 91 2014-08-04 01:21:33 <sipa> and i do expect that floating fees will cause problems
 92 2014-08-04 01:21:48 <sipa> but in the long term, we need something like that anyway
 93 2014-08-04 01:22:15 <earlz> infrastructure just needs to catch up
 94 2014-08-04 01:22:35 <gmaxwell> well the given estimation function is so/so, there are no magical solutions though... also the default being to bid for immediate confirms might also drive the fee market up.
 95 2014-08-04 01:22:51 <earlz> it's hard though, since there is no easy way (with the reference wallet) of knowing exact transaction fee before sending atransaction
 96 2014-08-04 01:23:13 <sipa> if you use raw transactions you can
 97 2014-08-04 01:23:18 <gmaxwell> then again there are a bunch of wallets that pay really high fees by default, because they don't have a size estimation loop and because of ???, and that hasn't seemed to cause fee rallies.
 98 2014-08-04 01:23:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: or coin control.
 99 2014-08-04 01:23:43 <sipa> oh, cool
100 2014-08-04 01:23:58 <earlz> I wish coin control was exposed to the RPC interface lol
101 2014-08-04 01:24:08 <sipa> it is, mostly
102 2014-08-04 01:24:09 <gmaxwell> it is
103 2014-08-04 01:24:29 <sipa> listunspent, createrawtransaction, signrawtransaction, sendrawtransaction
104 2014-08-04 01:24:37 <gmaxwell> raw transactions / listunspent / listaddressgroupings are the functionality. I think the only thing missing is the priority estimator.
105 2014-08-04 01:24:37 <sipa> and getnewchangeaddress
106 2014-08-04 01:24:58 <earlz> raw transactions hurt my brain :(
107 2014-08-04 01:25:03 <earlz> especially signing
108 2014-08-04 01:25:09 <sipa> good
109 2014-08-04 01:25:12 <sipa> then don't use it :)
110 2014-08-04 01:25:35 <earlz> I want a curses UI that pops up through JSON some how and lets me choose inputs rofl
111 2014-08-04 01:25:48 <gmaxwell> (but then you also probably shouldn't be using coin control— it's a only slightly safer but less flexible interface on the same behavior)
112 2014-08-04 01:26:12 <earlz> I really need to just take a dive and spend some hours on testnet learning all the ins and outs of raw transactions
113 2014-08-04 01:26:15 <sipa> i never understood why people want the micromanagement that coin control gives... i find it a very good thing to have, but mostly because it is educational
114 2014-08-04 01:26:19 <sipa> not to actually use it
115 2014-08-04 01:28:13 <earlz> I still never found anything suitable for writing out a raw transaction with control over the opcodes
116 2014-08-04 01:28:25 <earlz> I found a lot of stuff that can parse it, but not much else
117 2014-08-04 01:29:10 <gmaxwell> Thats probably not something that a GUI should ever exist for, not for mainnet. It's not something that can just safely be done casually.
118 2014-08-04 01:29:39 <gmaxwell> It's like saying "I haven't found anything that lets me drag and drop a circut for creating message encryption."
119 2014-08-04 01:30:25 <midnightmagic> it should be programmatically possible. it's unfortunate that sooo much is at stake if anybody gets it wrong.
120 2014-08-04 01:32:17 <gmaxwell> It's remarkably easy to get it wrong, I would not use a novel scriptpubkey on mainnet without peer review.
121 2014-08-04 01:32:23 <earlz> it'd be awesome if there was a bitcoin assembler of some such
122 2014-08-04 01:32:45 <gmaxwell> As soon as you do something non-trivial it's easy to end up with an anyone-can-spend output.
123 2014-08-04 01:33:05 <earlz> are there scanners running to claim anyone-can-spend outputs?
124 2014-08-04 01:33:07 <gmaxwell> "Oh, lol, you didn't think about someone giving a negative input to your script? sucks to be you— my money now!"
125 2014-08-04 01:33:35 <gmaxwell> earlz: there are few enough created that no one bothers. I mean, they get claimed, but not in an obviously automated fashion.
126 2014-08-04 01:36:00 <midnightmagic> didn't mtgox do that for a while
127 2014-08-04 04:14:03 <E-Rage> sipa: took forever but I think I reduced it to this guy: ae775b5b311982a3d932a9e34ddc94ce597dcaaf
128 2014-08-04 04:16:20 <E-Rage> running through another set cuz i may have accidentally screwed something but i'll let you know
129 2014-08-04 05:20:51 <mana_> hello do chrome extension wallet store my password hash on local storage?
130 2014-08-04 05:20:57 <mana_> isn't that insecure?
131 2014-08-04 05:43:43 <dsnrk> mana_: not really the place for talking about that, this is for the core client. you should avoid using chrome extension wallets though.
132 2014-08-04 05:48:36 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: this is for any bitcoin development.
133 2014-08-04 05:48:43 <Luke-Jr> (although not support)
134 2014-08-04 05:49:18 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: is a chrome extension wallet bitcoin development though?
135 2014-08-04 05:49:30 <Luke-Jr> sure. although it's still a stupid idea ofc
136 2014-08-04 05:49:33 <dsnrk> the topic says talking about a chrome extension is off topic.
137 2014-08-04 05:49:49 <dsnrk> but alright, shan't jump on that in future.
138 2014-08-04 05:50:15 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: you were right in this case, but not exactly the right reason; it was still off-topic cuz it's support :p
139 2014-08-04 08:43:35 <wumpus> E-Rage: ae775b5b311982a3d932a9e34ddc94ce597dcaaf could at most affect RPC, I don't see how it could affect blockchain indexing
140 2014-08-04 10:02:23 <mortalle> Are there any special limits to the size of the coinbase transaction?
141 2014-08-04 10:02:44 <mortalle> Can I miner make a 990KB coinbase transaction for example?
142 2014-08-04 10:05:25 <gmaxwell> mortalle: you can but there is lots of mining equipment that won't mine such a best.
143 2014-08-04 10:05:34 <gmaxwell> mortalle: there are several such transactions in testnet.
144 2014-08-04 10:05:57 <gmaxwell> I recommend installing sox on your host and runnin (./bitcoind getrawtransaction 73e64e38faea386c88a578fd1919bcdba3d0b3af7b6302bf6ee1b423dc4e4333 ; ./bitcoind                    getrawtransaction d85af546147ff78dfb06e9469ddfc84adc3ce00cda54db8d65b7617ff2b7661a) | xxd -r -p | play -tul -
145 2014-08-04 10:06:12 <gmaxwell> (on testnet)
146 2014-08-04 10:06:15 <mortalle> Ah, thank you!
147 2014-08-04 10:28:57 <mortalle> I've observed that the time it takes for sendtoaddress increases significantly the more unconfirmed transactions there are in the wallet. Is there an easy way to avoid that?
148 2014-08-04 10:32:01 <wumpus> mortalle: you could try -spendzeroconfchange=0, so that the wallet won't spend unconfirmed transaction outputs
149 2014-08-04 10:32:57 <mortalle> wumpus, thanks, is this a command line param or something to put in bitocin.conf?
150 2014-08-04 10:33:03 <wumpus> either
151 2014-08-04 10:33:28 <wumpus> but remove the - if you put it in bitcoin.conf...
152 2014-08-04 10:34:08 <wumpus> it does mean that sends can be rejected if there are no sufficiently confirmed outputs to choose from, even though there is enough balance in theory
153 2014-08-04 10:35:07 <mortalle> ok, thanks :) i'll see if that improves performance
154 2014-08-04 11:07:52 <mortalle> wumpus, Works like a charm (or it seems) Thanks.
155 2014-08-04 11:09:11 <michagogo> gmaxwell: did someone stuff audio into the chain or something?
156 2014-08-04 11:09:37 <sipa> it's the voice of Satoshi
157 2014-08-04 11:09:46 <michagogo> ...?
158 2014-08-04 11:09:56 <sipa> (in other words: yes)
159 2014-08-04 11:10:31 <michagogo> What is it? (or, what command will turn that into a sound file rather than playing it?)
160 2014-08-04 11:11:19 <sipa> remove the play command at the end
161 2014-08-04 11:11:57 <michagogo> and >file, I assume?
162 2014-08-04 11:13:51 <sipa> yes, but it's raw audio, so you won't be able to play it with a normal audio player
163 2014-08-04 11:14:45 <michagogo> Ah. What will play it?
164 2014-08-04 11:14:59 <gribble> raw audio player free download - Softonic: <http://en.softonic.com/s/raw-audio-player>; raw player free download - Softonic: <http://en.softonic.com/s/raw-player>; windows 8 - play raw PCM wave audio in Win8 (consumer preview ...: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10032670/play-raw-pcm-wave-audio-in-win8-consumer-preview>
165 2014-08-04 11:14:59 <michagogo> ;;google play raw audio windows
166 2014-08-04 11:15:00 <sipa> play -tul filename :)
167 2014-08-04 11:15:12 <michagogo> ;;google play raw audio windows -site:softonic.com
168 2014-08-04 11:15:13 <gribble> windows 8 - play raw PCM wave audio in Win8 (consumer preview ...: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10032670/play-raw-pcm-wave-audio-in-win8-consumer-preview>; VideoLAN - VLC - Features: <http://www.videolan.org/vlc/features.html>; Most popular RAW Format software: Windows Media Player ...: <http://raw-format.software.informer.com/software/>
169 2014-08-04 11:16:38 <michagogo> Hm. My linux vps is down, apparently
170 2014-08-04 11:16:53 <michagogo> And getrawtransaction on that first tx seems to have frozen the debug window...
171 2014-08-04 11:17:19 <michagogo> And spiked CPU usage? o_O
172 2014-08-04 11:17:30 <wumpus> you tried to open it in the GUI? oh boy
173 2014-08-04 11:17:51 <michagogo> uh...
174 2014-08-04 11:18:34 <wumpus> there is currently no functionality built-in to send long lines to the soundcard instead of the screen
175 2014-08-04 11:18:35 <michagogo> Ah, I see now why that's happening
176 2014-08-04 11:18:49 <michagogo> Looks like RPC still works
177 2014-08-04 11:18:58 <dsnrk> wumpus: I'll post a github issue.
178 2014-08-04 11:19:15 <michagogo> So I used Ruby (irb) to get the tx over rpc
179 2014-08-04 11:19:28 <michagogo> Still watching the hex flash by...
180 2014-08-04 11:19:55 <michagogo> => 1999804
181 2014-08-04 11:19:55 <michagogo> irb(main):004:0> tx1.length
182 2014-08-04 11:20:14 <wumpus> dsnrk: and very large data could be rendered as video
183 2014-08-04 11:20:43 <dsnrk> wumpus: I'm already firing up ffmpeg and seeing what I can get in 1MB
184 2014-08-04 11:20:54 <wumpus> (ok, that gives wrong ideas, maybe fun for an altcoin client that allows storing large data in the block chain)
185 2014-08-04 11:20:57 <sipa> we need BCMF (blockchain media format)
186 2014-08-04 11:21:45 <wumpus> sipa: xbmc recently changed their name, it's now BCMC (block chain media center)
187 2014-08-04 11:22:05 <sipa> :D
188 2014-08-04 11:23:41 <dsnrk> whoops. thought I might get good compression maxing out x264. < 1 FPS encoding.
189 2014-08-04 11:30:11 <dsnrk> good news is you can get 2 minutes of Adventure Time in one minute.
190 2014-08-04 11:30:15 <dsnrk> **one megabyte
191 2014-08-04 11:36:18 <wumpus> I'm trying to watch the blockchain in full-hd now with  gst-launch-1.0 filesrc location=boostrap.dat ! videoparse format=i420 width=1920 height=1080 framerate=30/1 ! xvimagesink  .. but my harddisk isn't fast enough
192 2014-08-04 11:37:10 <dsnrk> what does the output of that look like?
193 2014-08-04 11:37:20 <wumpus> colorful noise
194 2014-08-04 11:37:36 <wumpus> with some other-colored regions and patterns sometimes
195 2014-08-04 11:38:24 <dsnrk> I'd try it from a ramdisk but I have no idea what that command is even using.
196 2014-08-04 11:42:08 <sipa> wumpus: yeah, bitcoin's resource requirements are terrible, especially if you want the video feature
197 2014-08-04 11:46:25 <michagogo> um
198 2014-08-04 11:46:36 <michagogo> What is it supposed to sound like?
199 2014-08-04 11:46:58 <michagogo> I tried using Audacity's "import raw" thing
200 2014-08-04 11:47:01 <sipa> if you don't recognize it, it's not what you're supposed to hear
201 2014-08-04 11:47:15 <michagogo> yeah, no, it's just this weird squealing
202 2014-08-04 11:47:56 <michagogo> What's the encoding?
203 2014-08-04 11:48:07 <michagogo> Default seems to be "Signed 16-bit PCM"
204 2014-08-04 11:48:44 <michagogo> Should it be something else? http://i.imgur.com/ZPyc2tq.png
205 2014-08-04 11:50:05 <dsnrk> bitcoin needs a "matrix" mode where it prints new transaction hashes down the screen in green text.
206 2014-08-04 11:50:15 <dsnrk> why has nobody made that yet?
207 2014-08-04 11:51:32 <sipa> michagogo: try unsigned 8 bit
208 2014-08-04 11:52:54 <michagogo> nope
209 2014-08-04 11:53:12 <sipa> signed 8 bit?
210 2014-08-04 11:53:14 <sipa> try mono
211 2014-08-04 11:53:26 <sipa> really, try just all combinations :)
212 2014-08-04 11:53:27 <michagogo> Here's the file I'm giving it -- created by pasting the hex into HxD https://www.dropbox.com/s/rijrguti1i8lkxt/test_blockchain_data_converted
213 2014-08-04 11:56:38 <chichov> which transaction types can be used in conjunction with P2SH?
214 2014-08-04 11:56:52 <michagogo> chichov: what do you mean by "transaction types"?
215 2014-08-04 11:57:08 <chichov> P2PK, P2PKH, P2SH, Multisig and Nulldata
216 2014-08-04 11:57:26 <michagogo> What do you mean by "in conjunction"?
217 2014-08-04 11:57:38 <chichov> well, it's an embedded type, so you use it together with another type
218 2014-08-04 11:57:54 <chichov> say P2SH with Multisig
219 2014-08-04 11:58:02 <michagogo> a P2SH scripthash can be anything
220 2014-08-04 11:58:09 <chichov> even nulldata? heh
221 2014-08-04 11:58:15 <michagogo> (well, except for another P2SH -- I don't think you can nest them)
222 2014-08-04 11:58:35 <chichov> just wondering how that would evaluate
223 2014-08-04 11:58:37 <michagogo> Yes, you can hash "OP_RETURN <data>" and send to that scripthash
224 2014-08-04 11:58:46 <michagogo> But that would be pointless
225 2014-08-04 11:58:53 <michagogo> Well, FSVO pointless
226 2014-08-04 11:59:05 <chichov> wow, spendable nulldata transactions
227 2014-08-04 11:59:07 <michagogo> The data in question would never make it onto the blockchain
228 2014-08-04 11:59:11 <michagogo> No, not spendable
229 2014-08-04 11:59:23 <chichov> how come?
230 2014-08-04 11:59:31 <michagogo> The UTXO wouldn't be spendable, but it wouldn't appear spendable either
231 2014-08-04 11:59:43 <michagogo> erm, appear unspendable*
232 2014-08-04 12:00:01 <chichov> hm, you would be able to create a valid tx output with P2SH Nulldata
233 2014-08-04 12:00:10 <michagogo> what do you mean "valid"
234 2014-08-04 12:00:19 <chichov> that it would pass all the sanity checks
235 2014-08-04 12:00:24 <michagogo> What sanity checks?
236 2014-08-04 12:00:49 <chichov> transaction output / input script typing, among others
237 2014-08-04 12:01:07 <chichov> it would be identified as a simple P2SH transaction
238 2014-08-04 12:01:10 <michagogo> Um, if you're looking at the transaction/blockchain, the output is just another P2SH
239 2014-08-04 12:01:16 <chichov> exactly
240 2014-08-04 12:01:23 <michagogo> No way to know that it's anything different unless you have the script
241 2014-08-04 12:01:29 <chichov> now, what would happen if you try to create a corresponding input script?
242 2014-08-04 12:01:39 <michagogo> You can't spend it, though
243 2014-08-04 12:01:54 <chichov> where would it fail?
244 2014-08-04 12:01:57 <michagogo> Just like with a non-P2SH OP_RETURN
245 2014-08-04 12:02:08 <michagogo> At the point that the OP_RETURN is executed
246 2014-08-04 12:02:17 <chichov> indeed
247 2014-08-04 12:02:19 <amaclin> chichov, have a look here:http://webbtc.com/stats (line: P2SH Types) I am not sure that OP_RETURN in p2sh is a good idea :)
248 2014-08-04 12:03:13 <chichov> michagogo: lemme look that up in the code though
249 2014-08-04 12:04:07 <michagogo> aha
250 2014-08-04 12:04:49 <michagogo> Running that `play` command on the linux vps, even though it doesn't have speakers, told me what settings I needed to use for the Audacity import
251 2014-08-04 12:05:44 <michagogo> The encoding is "u-law"
252 2014-08-04 12:05:52 <michagogo> And the sample rate is 8000 hz
253 2014-08-04 12:06:30 <amaclin> chichov, another good link about p2sh transactions https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0
254 2014-08-04 12:06:53 <michagogo> Though, with the sample rate slowed to 8000Hz, even with other (wrong) encodings, it's identifiable
255 2014-08-04 12:11:49 <wumpus> bootstrap.dat as ulaw audio sounds... interesting
256 2014-08-04 12:13:35 <wumpus> too noisy for my taste though
257 2014-08-04 12:15:08 <michagogo> Sounds like a generator.
258 2014-08-04 12:15:54 <wumpus> a block generator
259 2014-08-04 12:18:33 <kinlo> wumpus: why the hell would you listen to that :)
260 2014-08-04 12:18:51 <kinlo> are there pools encoding sounds in their blocks? :p
261 2014-08-04 12:20:05 <wumpus> kinlo: only on testnet afaik
262 2014-08-04 12:20:24 <wumpus> kinlo: and I'm not sure there is more than the transactions mentioned above
263 2014-08-04 12:23:54 <wumpus> you'd have to listen to the entire block chain in all possible audio formats to be sure :p
264 2014-08-04 12:25:15 <Graet> then play it backwards to check for satanic messages, how I miss LPs
265 2014-08-04 12:25:16 <Graet> lol
266 2014-08-04 12:25:37 <wumpus> hehehe
267 2014-08-04 12:26:43 <amaclin> http://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html
268 2014-08-04 12:33:50 <dsnrk> wumpus: listening to it as audio sounds terrible.
269 2014-08-04 12:33:59 <dsnrk> like the worlds worst chainsaw.
270 2014-08-04 12:39:22 <wumpus> bitcoin: the world's worst chainsaw
271 2014-08-04 12:51:33 <wumpus> the blockchain isn't interesting to look at with binvis either, looks like ants http://oi58.tinypic.com/aens4l.jpg  (for comparison, bitcoin-qt's executable http://oi61.tinypic.com/25sy9f5.jpg)
272 2014-08-04 13:41:30 <gdm85> wumpus: apply despeckle and blur, print on tshirt :)
273 2014-08-04 13:46:52 <wumpus> heh... whatever you do, don't do this with your wallet.dat :)
274 2014-08-04 14:03:01 <michagogo> What's binvis?
275 2014-08-04 14:03:33 <michagogo> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcode.google.com%2Fp%2Fbinvis%2F&ei=rJLfU4vZOqKr0QWIqIGIBg&usg=AFQjCNGS4F6JRoyAdC7qXxoe_l2huSzRcg&sig2=3ocAVKEm5DGiOfzkaxtpcw&bvm=bv.72197243,d.bGQ?
276 2014-08-04 14:03:34 <michagogo> uh
277 2014-08-04 14:03:40 <michagogo> https://code.google.com/p/binvis/?
278 2014-08-04 14:12:35 <wumpus> michagogo: http://corte.si/%2Fposts/visualisation/binvis/index.html
279 2014-08-04 14:13:19 <wumpus> the idea is to use a space-filling curve to render a binary stream in 2D while preserving locality
280 2014-08-04 14:15:08 <wumpus> it makes it easier to see small structures than just dumping it in left-to-right, top-to-bottom fashion
281 2014-08-04 16:47:52 <gribble> I have not seen sgnd.
282 2014-08-04 16:47:52 <ThomasV> !seen sgnd
283 2014-08-04 17:44:32 <Diapolo> wumpus: are you on?
284 2014-08-04 19:03:14 <lodewijkadlp> I'm trying to accept, hold and resend Bitcoin on a minimalistic server (I want a thin RPC server)
285 2014-08-04 19:03:47 <lodewijkadlp> I can probably go-hard-go-deep and just run bitcoind, but last time I did that it wasn't nearly as much fun as it really could be
286 2014-08-04 19:04:59 <lodewijkadlp> clues?
287 2014-08-04 19:05:36 <sipa> you didn't ask a question :)
288 2014-08-04 19:06:11 <lodewijkadlp> Ah, but desire makes the world go round. Not the structure of the sentence.
289 2014-08-04 19:07:11 <gmaxwell> So, you want to run a server which handled money, presumably for other people, and running bitcoind is too complicated for you?
290 2014-08-04 19:07:25 <lodewijkadlp> haha
291 2014-08-04 19:07:27 <lodewijkadlp> no
292 2014-08-04 19:07:38 <gmaxwell> Then you might want to elaborate more!
293 2014-08-04 19:07:41 <lodewijkadlp> it's not about complicated
294 2014-08-04 19:07:50 <lodewijkadlp> it's about disk space and not doing things I shouldn't be doing
295 2014-08-04 19:08:20 <lodewijkadlp> all I want to know is "has this address gotten money", "give me an address" and maybe, if I host somewhere secure, send money
296 2014-08-04 19:08:29 <lodewijkadlp> but that sending of money... that's really not going to happen soon
297 2014-08-04 19:08:38 <lodewijkadlp> private keys are harder to store than gold
298 2014-08-04 19:11:10 <lodewijkadlp> Okay, so, I have this service called bitshops.net. It will host client-side encrypted webshops. Seemed much simpler than it is. Uses AES and NTRUcrypt now, quantum computer proof! Everything is in place up to the point where the Bitcoin stuff really starts happening. You can create, browse, make orders. The orders need to take money. The money should at some point be withdrawn by the storeowners.
299 2014-08-04 19:11:27 <lodewijkadlp> It's a pretty simple thing, but it's pretty f-ed up when you're handeling plasma (aka private keys)
300 2014-08-04 19:12:21 <lodewijkadlp> At first I'll host from home, I have a good connection. So I'm pretty okay with just having the private keys on the server.
301 2014-08-04 19:12:42 <lodewijkadlp> I'll keep the money stored down, manually cold wallet it when it seems relevant.
302 2014-08-04 19:15:22 <lodewijkadlp> I'd like a trustworthy server that takes the hardship out of Bitcoin server-side services
303 2014-08-04 19:15:33 <sipa> i think you should reread gmaxwell's question
304 2014-08-04 19:16:54 <lodewijkadlp> I'm really not looking for people to call me an amateur
305 2014-08-04 19:17:10 <lodewijkadlp> instead, I'm looking at ways to mitigate the problems that amateurs have
306 2014-08-04 19:17:22 <lodewijkadlp> not in a hard way, but in an easy way
307 2014-08-04 19:17:52 <lodewijkadlp> In other words, I'd rather cook spaghetty than figure out how to clean mushrooms without using water and ruining them
308 2014-08-04 19:18:58 <lodewijkadlp> that analogy wasn't that strong, but maybe you get it anyway
309 2014-08-04 19:19:13 <lodewijkadlp> better to avoid problems alltogether than to solve them.
310 2014-08-04 19:19:45 <lodewijkadlp> the only reason things are insecure in the first place is because they're so hard
311 2014-08-04 19:20:18 <lodewijkadlp> anyone can do something hard
312 2014-08-04 19:20:23 <lodewijkadlp> it's just better not to
313 2014-08-04 19:23:27 <lodewijkadlp> sipa, could you tell me what you mean a bit less cryptically?
314 2014-08-04 19:27:33 <lodewijkadlp> if someone incapable really does come here with these sort of questions, sent them to coinbase or anything else
315 2014-08-04 19:27:43 <lodewijkadlp> preferably something else
316 2014-08-04 19:28:10 <sipa> sorry, i missed your reply
317 2014-08-04 19:30:54 <sipa> lodewijkadlp: i just meant that i didn't see you answered gmaxwell
318 2014-08-04 19:31:25 <lodewijkadlp> well, he didn't answer anymore later either. Maybe I just triggered an automatic response to noob-like questions.
319 2014-08-04 19:31:50 <sipa> but really, you're going to be storing money for other people
320 2014-08-04 19:31:55 <lodewijkadlp> there's also that I'm new generation. Relatively low experience with *nix, more webdev focussed and stuff
321 2014-08-04 19:32:12 <lodewijkadlp> And I'd like to do it properly.
322 2014-08-04 19:32:24 <sipa> i'd say you better spend some time trying to understand things
323 2014-08-04 19:32:31 <lodewijkadlp> be specific
324 2014-08-04 19:32:36 <lodewijkadlp> then I can spend the time
325 2014-08-04 19:32:56 <lodewijkadlp> I think I'll know about almost everything you'll come up with.
326 2014-08-04 19:33:09 <sipa> well, i suggest (but i'm biased) that you start by getting bitcoind running
327 2014-08-04 19:33:15 <lodewijkadlp> did it in the past
328 2014-08-04 19:33:18 <lodewijkadlp> years ago in fact
329 2014-08-04 19:33:26 <lodewijkadlp> but I don't want bitcoind, I want minimal disk space usage
330 2014-08-04 19:33:40 <sipa> why?
331 2014-08-04 19:33:46 <lodewijkadlp> I think less activities is safer activities.
332 2014-08-04 19:33:58 <lodewijkadlp> I just want to do A, B, C. Don't give me a fat stack with up to Z in it.
333 2014-08-04 19:34:13 <sipa> if you want to accept money from others, and do it safely, you should at least run a full node you can trust
334 2014-08-04 19:34:33 <sipa> you don't need to use its wallet - there are many other imomementations these days
335 2014-08-04 19:34:35 <lodewijkadlp> I also want to be able to separate a public key server from a private key server, for scalability. But that's longer term.
336 2014-08-04 19:34:58 <lodewijkadlp> running a full node hardly improves security
337 2014-08-04 19:35:19 <sipa> compared to?
338 2014-08-04 19:35:25 <lodewijkadlp> .. depending on the threat model
339 2014-08-04 19:35:30 <lodewijkadlp> compared to a light client
340 2014-08-04 19:35:38 <lodewijkadlp> if your connections are good it's just the same
341 2014-08-04 19:36:03 <lodewijkadlp> I shouldn't say "hardly improves security", it's a bit too bold.
342 2014-08-04 19:36:16 <sipa> it depends on the threat model, agree
343 2014-08-04 19:36:31 <sipa> but is 30gb that much? my phone has more storage...
344 2014-08-04 19:36:41 <lodewijkadlp> ... yes
345 2014-08-04 19:36:42 <lodewijkadlp> it is
346 2014-08-04 19:37:13 <lodewijkadlp> but it's not just the storage. For me it's the idea that this thing does not exist to support the network, merely to look at it.
347 2014-08-04 19:37:33 <lodewijkadlp> I'll just run bitcoind
348 2014-08-04 19:37:41 <lodewijkadlp> seems like there isn't a better solution yet
349 2014-08-04 19:37:52 <lodewijkadlp> maybe btcd?
350 2014-08-04 19:38:13 <sipa> i'd still run it behind a bitcoind, but i'm biased as a bitcoind developer
351 2014-08-04 19:38:48 <sipa> i think there are several more useful wallet implementations out there, and the one in bitcoind is lagging behind
352 2014-08-04 19:39:05 <sipa> but as a full node, you need it imho
353 2014-08-04 19:39:10 <dhill> btcd and bitcoind are full node clients.  there is btcwallet, but that requires a btcd node.  adding SPV support to btcwallet is on the todo list.
354 2014-08-04 20:13:36 <lianj> anyone recall bip34 switch blocks for mainnet and testnet3?
355 2014-08-04 21:05:26 <sipa> E-Rage: you were the one with that testnet block 381 issue, right?
356 2014-08-04 23:57:22 <cfields> jgarzik: ping
357 2014-08-04 23:57:55 <jgarzik> cfields, ni hao
358 2014-08-04 23:58:31 <cfields> hao
359 2014-08-04 23:58:33 <cfields> soo.
360 2014-08-04 23:58:54 <cfields> i'm not at all familiar with the code, just asking out of curiosity
361 2014-08-04 23:59:05 <jgarzik> My wife tells me I talk slowly, then she takes _forever_ to get to the point.
362 2014-08-04 23:59:28 <cfields> what's the use of hanging on to an address if it's obviously "terrible" ?
363 2014-08-04 23:59:59 <gmaxwell> cfields: More context?
364 2014-08-04 23:59:59 <jgarzik> cfields, If you are a Glass Half Full sort of person, there is always the chance the address might become not-terrible