1 2014-11-30 00:34:38 <gmaxwell> tErik: there is no IETF draft for bitcoin, and so far people at the IETF that I've worked with have been not interested in doing on there. (though I'm working on that)
  2 2014-11-30 00:35:45 <gmaxwell> tErik: Because Bitcoin is a consensus system, ultimately the protocol is specified by the participants implementations-- a written spec may be informative, though its ultimately a dead letter if the implementation(s) disagree with it.  You can see prose decrtiptions of the protocol in the developer guide on bitcoin.org and on the bitcoin wiki.
  3 2014-11-30 00:35:58 <gmaxwell> (though note, these resources are works in progress and are not completely accurate)
  4 2014-11-30 00:37:21 <tErik> so this http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7305 & this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0070 are only partially related to btc protocol ?
  5 2014-11-30 00:38:51 <gmaxwell> 7305 has nothing to do with bitcoin.
  6 2014-11-30 00:39:28 <tErik> ya, was wondering why its coming at top of google-search ! Thanks.
  7 2014-11-30 00:39:42 <gmaxwell> tErik: because it mentions bitcoin.
  8 2014-11-30 00:39:56 <gmaxwell> The BIP process is proposals for community standards and other informative documents in the Bitcoin ecosystem. BIPs describe e.g. additions to the bitcoin ecosystem, protocol enhancements, etc.
  9 2014-11-30 00:39:56 <tErik> dumb search-engine.
 10 2014-11-30 00:42:07 <tErik> was looking at this https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide
 11 2014-11-30 01:05:57 <tErik> Someone mentioned there was a IETF draft or draft in progress (for bitcoin PROTOCOL), was it truthful ? if truthful, what hapenned to it ?
 12 2014-11-30 01:07:20 <midnightmagic> tErik: it's not really practical..
 13 2014-11-30 01:07:28 <agorist000> Is there an easy way to use regtest mode with bitcoin-qt>
 14 2014-11-30 01:07:48 <midnightmagic> not yet at least
 15 2014-11-30 01:10:16 <gmaxwell> tErik: No. There isn't.
 16 2014-11-30 01:12:42 <tErik> Thanks, gmaxwell. Got it. I guess, more needs to adopt & interested into bitcoin protocol based objects, like bitcoin-currency, bitcoin-car, bitcoin-home, etc.
 17 2014-11-30 01:14:50 <gmaxwell> tErik: those devices should almost certantly not be implementing the complete bitcoin protocol; if any of it at all.
 18 2014-11-30 01:15:10 <gmaxwell> You can use bitcoin with an object without the object speaking the bitcoin protocol.
 19 2014-11-30 01:16:05 <WolfGoethe> Hi. we have a digital file market place that's been up for 2 years and takes bitcoin. We need a way to reg users files to a blockchain now. What is the best method? bitcoin and opt return? side chain? seperate coin like namecoin? our own coin ? basically we let folks upload a mess of files and want to store the signature of the files into a blockchain somehow so they can get a decentralized "certificate of original ownership. please advise
 20 2014-11-30 01:18:01 <WolfGoethe> i think monogrpah is trying to do this but is relaunching as an image market place. We do all kinds of files and wanna offer this now. need some advice. on how to best decentralize it.
 21 2014-11-30 01:18:35 <WolfGoethe> gmaxwell do u have an idea bout this? I was told to ask you
 22 2014-11-30 01:19:24 <gmaxwell> WolfGoethe: You're not actually stating what you'd like to accomplish "a way to reg users files to a blockchain" is a mechenism, not a goal.
 23 2014-11-30 01:20:42 <Azelphur> he mentioned in #bitcoin he wanted to register their copyrights on the blockchain, I assumed he wanted something like a MD5Sum of the file in the blockchain to prove time and ownership
 24 2014-11-30 01:22:34 <WolfGoethe> yeah, i am not sure how best to do it. but we let folks upload a collection of files into folders we call chests. was thinking that we could let them make a special chest where every single file they uploaded there would get regged to the blockchain and they would get proof of ownership.
 25 2014-11-30 01:22:49 <gmaxwell> To achieve what end?
 26 2014-11-30 01:22:56 <WolfGoethe> not sure how it would work cryptographically. perhaps they would get a private key for the entire collection?
 27 2014-11-30 01:23:26 <WolfGoethe> the end is to "give them proof of ownership via the blockchain" so they feel warm and fuzz inside and can give people a link to prove they own these files
 28 2014-11-30 01:23:44 <gmaxwell> "proof of owership" is underdefined, I could understand what you mean better if you could tell me specifically what you hope to accomplish (without mentioning blockchains or cryptography at all).
 29 2014-11-30 01:24:42 <gmaxwell> Okay, so say two people claim to own the same file? how could someone distinguish which claim is authentic?  Say two files are not _exactly_ equal, but almost, so, like a single additional space in one?  If I 'own' one do I 'own' the other?
 30 2014-11-30 01:26:15 <WolfGoethe> gmaxwell  there are many issues such that proving complete ownership will basically be impossible. the same issues also plaguhe the library of congress and their system. we cannot have a perfect system here. we simply need a way for people to "claim" ownership
 31 2014-11-30 01:26:25 <tErik> there need to be comparison algorithm, it will compare content, if 99.99% same, then whoose date is earlier, is the owner ?
 32 2014-11-30 01:27:06 <WolfGoethe> the date of file will be the best guide for new content. for older content it is all up in the air as content producers retroactively register their content
 33 2014-11-30 01:27:42 <midnightmagic> geh. please don't spam the blockchain.
 34 2014-11-30 01:27:44 <Azelphur> I still think a file hash would work fine for copyright issues, if someone makes a minor change it still doesn't matter, the goal is to prove that you had that file first, I would think
 35 2014-11-30 01:28:03 <Azelphur> midnightmagic: that's what he's trying to avoid :)
 36 2014-11-30 01:28:06 <WolfGoethe> in the genesis there does not need to be anything except a simple way to just register the files somehow. no checking or matching system is needed, except perhaps to compare the md5 file sum with the existing files regged on the chain,
 37 2014-11-30 01:28:18 <WolfGoethe> Azelphur exactly
 38 2014-11-30 01:28:32 <WolfGoethe> it does not need to be perfect
 39 2014-11-30 01:28:53 <midnightmagic> there literally needs to be nothing in the blockchain itself to achieve blockchain-secured stamping.
 40 2014-11-30 01:29:26 <gmaxwell> Azelphur: I'm trying to get him to make a precise statement of what he wants.
 41 2014-11-30 01:29:34 <WolfGoethe> if i take a photo i think is gonna be a landmark photoone day i reg it on a blockchain sidechain etc.. then i get a link and a private key proving i own it . this is what i can send around to media who uses it to prove I own it. it may not be 100% proof as it is not government recognized, but so what
 42 2014-11-30 01:29:39 <Azelphur> gmaxwell: me too :)
 43 2014-11-30 01:29:52 <gmaxwell> Azelphur: So, for example, if I go start timestamping all the things that you've authored; as you don't use the system. I 'own' them? Is that okay?
 44 2014-11-30 01:30:03 <WolfGoethe> i just want  a way to show the world "yo i own this shit"
 45 2014-11-30 01:30:12 <Azelphur> gmaxwell: good point, :)
 46 2014-11-30 01:30:18 <gmaxwell> If the goal is simply to timestamp there are much more efficient mechenisms.
 47 2014-11-30 01:30:53 <gmaxwell> WolfGoethe: I think you should probably stop using the word own, as you've described no mechenism which an automated system could map its behavior to a traditional notion of ownership.
 48 2014-11-30 01:31:08 <WolfGoethe> gmaxwell indeed there will be many people claiming things they do not own, which is fine. it is all linked to the owner of the content and thei reputation etc.. the social channels they have etc..
 49 2014-11-30 01:31:34 <WolfGoethe> to me I own it. to the world at large it is simply a "Claim"
 50 2014-11-30 01:31:59 <WolfGoethe> that is what a deed or lease is as well a claim, verified and backed up by a central authroity aka the state
 51 2014-11-30 01:32:32 <WolfGoethe> the real question here is how do we in a decentralzied system mimick the "verification processes" that the state uses or get as close as possible.
 52 2014-11-30 01:33:00 <gmaxwell> And what are you attempting to verify? (again, without reference to cryptographic tools)
 53 2014-11-30 01:33:51 <WolfGoethe> gmaxwell that I produced this content. here is my claim ,
 54 2014-11-30 01:35:33 <gmaxwell> Okay. I don't believe its possible for an automated system to prove that you produced something.
 55 2014-11-30 01:38:03 <WolfGoethe> it cannot
 56 2014-11-30 01:38:25 <gmaxwell> lets move this to #bitcoin; it's really OT for here.
 57 2014-11-30 01:38:30 <WolfGoethe> it can only prove that you staked out a claim. and own some source files if any
 58 2014-11-30 01:38:45 <tErik> Such network would have to hold the entire practically implemented content, like UPTO (trademark+copyright office), and actual authors info, to give data to others who was actual inventor.
 59 2014-11-30 09:16:39 <Genitrust> hmm, i'm trying to compile... at i get the error: #include <db_cxx.h>
 60 2014-11-30 09:16:41 <Genitrust> (for OSX)
 61 2014-11-30 09:16:54 <op_null> do you need a wallet?
 62 2014-11-30 09:17:15 <Genitrust> i'd like to build myself for OSX
 63 2014-11-30 09:17:17 <Genitrust> yosemite
 64 2014-11-30 09:17:26 <op_null> yes, but do you need wallet support.
 65 2014-11-30 09:17:30 <Genitrust> yes
 66 2014-11-30 09:18:06 <Genitrust> oh wait, i may need to set my berkeley-db path...
 67 2014-11-30 09:18:23 <op_null> it should be able to find that itself
 68 2014-11-30 09:18:31 <op_null> do you use homebrew?
 69 2014-11-30 09:18:38 <Genitrust> yup
 70 2014-11-30 09:18:46 <Genitrust> only cause i can't stand macports ;x
 71 2014-11-30 09:19:31 <op_null> did you isntall the bdb using the instructions in build-osx.md?
 72 2014-11-30 09:20:06 <Genitrust> do you know how to manually set the BDB path?
 73 2014-11-30 09:21:00 <Genitrust> i'm guessing... BDB_PREFIX=$(pwd)/build
 74 2014-11-30 09:23:57 <op_null> you shouldn't have to do that manually if the bdb package came from homebrew I don't think
 75 2014-11-30 09:24:51 <Genitrust> it's lookin like i'll have to =\ after all, the make is complaining that it cannot find db_cxx.h (part of bdb)
 76 2014-11-30 09:26:06 <Genitrust> welp i guess it's just time to make a symlink lol
 77 2014-11-30 10:30:52 <Genitrust> awesome @.@ just finished my OSX instructions: http://wiki.gridcoin.us/OS_X_Guide
 78 2014-11-30 10:38:02 <Luke-Jr> Genitrust: this is #bitcoin-dev, not ##altcoin-dev
 79 2014-11-30 10:39:07 <Genitrust> heya Luke-Jr! good morning!
 80 2014-11-30 10:39:09 <Genitrust> ...or good evening?
 81 2014-11-30 10:39:26 <Genitrust> and sorry about that. thought i was in #gridcoin . screw altcoin-dev ...
 82 2014-11-30 10:40:56 <Luke-Jr> Genitrust: that comment goes for your previous questioning too..
 83 2014-11-30 10:41:16 <Genitrust> :D
 84 2014-11-30 10:41:29 <Genitrust> how are you Luke-Jr?
 85 2014-11-30 10:41:45 <Luke-Jr> trying to get tired so I can sleep a bit
 86 2014-11-30 10:42:17 <Genitrust> try watching professors lecture on youtube? helps me
 87 2014-11-30 10:42:23 <Genitrust> even when the topic is extremely interesting
 88 2014-11-30 10:42:49 <Luke-Jr> heh
 89 2014-11-30 10:47:15 <op_null> Luke-Jr: try this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzyXMEpq4qw
 90 2014-11-30 10:47:29 <Luke-Jr> part of my problem is that I didn't wake up all that long ago :P
 91 2014-11-30 10:48:02 <Genitrust> wow op_null, good find
 92 2014-11-30 10:51:56 <Genitrust> op_null: yup, that vid is making me sleepy. gunna go continue that in the bedroom
 93 2014-11-30 10:52:01 <Genitrust> gnight op_null and Luke-Jr !
 94 2014-11-30 17:23:22 <sipa> whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
 95 2014-11-30 19:19:25 <arubi> Q: When verifying a message+signature against a public address, does the 'public key recovery' function sometime outputs multiple possible public keys, and then checks each against the rmd160 hash for the given public address?
 96 2014-11-30 19:20:19 <sipa> there can be up to 4 different public keys that can be recovered from an ECDSA signature+message (though almost always just 2)
 97 2014-11-30 19:20:44 <sipa> but the 'signmessage' output includes a signature + the number the recover
 98 2014-11-30 19:20:49 <sipa> so only one recovery is needed
 99 2014-11-30 19:21:30 <arubi> Ah, nice.   Very elegant.
100 2014-11-30 19:21:47 <arubi> Thanks sipa.
101 2014-11-30 19:21:50 <sipa> it only encodes whether the recovered pubkey is to be compressed or not
102 2014-11-30 19:22:02 <sipa> as the hash160 would otherwise differ as well
103 2014-11-30 19:22:10 <arubi> Oh yea, that's right.
104 2014-11-30 20:46:57 <BTC_> Hi, can someone link me to an article that explains step by step the process in which bitcoins are "mined"
105 2014-11-30 20:48:21 <belcher> BTC_ better to ask in #bitcoin but try https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining
106 2014-11-30 20:49:39 <BTC_> I've seen that, what I'm really looking for is a step-by-step process
107 2014-11-30 20:49:46 <BTC_> an algorithm, pseudocode, the like