1 2014-12-26 05:45:58 <fanquake> Would anyone be opposed to raisng the debian version suggested in the gitian building guide to 7.7? (currently 7.4)
 2 2014-12-26 05:48:33 <Dizzle> (I have no say, but am curious) Is it a compatibility issue or is there some new fancybusiness to take advantage of in 7.7+?
 3 2014-12-26 05:52:05 <gmaxwell> fanquake: yes, it would make the resulting binaries incompatible with older distributions.
 4 2014-12-26 05:52:52 <gmaxwell> oh the _debian_ version.
 5 2014-12-26 05:53:28 <gmaxwell> I don't see any reason the host couldn't be 7.7.
 6 2014-12-26 05:53:48 <fanquake> Yea, you had me rethinking myself for a second there..
 7 2014-12-26 05:54:17 <gmaxwell> Sorry. Long day.
 8 2014-12-26 05:54:41 <fanquake> Just asking because the current link to the debian netinst is broken, and I cant for the life of me seem to find a new link to download 7.4..
 9 2014-12-26 05:55:16 <gmaxwell> hah. Are you able to find any digital signatures for _any_ of the netinst images, incidentally?
10 2014-12-26 05:57:10 <fanquake> I can’t seem to find anything. All the links on https://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst link straight too, and begin downloading an .iso
11 2014-12-26 05:57:23 <fanquake> No mention of sigs or any other verification
12 2014-12-26 05:58:23 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
13 2014-12-26 06:00:17 <fanquake> Also http://archive.debian.org/debian/dists/ doesn’t seem to have been updated since 5.0 came out, so I’m not sure what the deal is
14 2014-12-26 06:18:19 <fanquake> Dizzle Completely missed your comment. Nothing new/fancy in the new debian. building is still exactly the same. I just can’t find anywhere to download the older version.
15 2014-12-26 06:19:08 <Dizzle> cool, thanks for clarifying!
16 2014-12-26 06:42:33 <Techguy305> oes anyone know where I can buy bitcoins with paypal other than localbitcoins
17 2014-12-26 06:50:59 <fanquake> Techguy305 This isn’t the right channel to be asking in. Try #bitcoin or #bitcoin-otc
18 2014-12-26 08:30:11 <midnightmagic> PPC host, using branch 2014_12_bigendian at git commit c32fbeb50ea8748cf07c5fcf2c5281843ccfbd4b, beginning with a local, LAN-only sync on 2014-12-22 14:42:27, ending on 2014-12-25 09:15:45, I managed to get a block checksum mismatch; and then a moment later a leveldb corruption error.
19 2014-12-26 08:31:00 <midnightmagic> unfortunately i don't have coredumps turned on for that host so I don't have a stack trace.
20 2014-12-26 08:31:24 <midnightmagic> never really understood why the default is not to dump core in linux but anyway
21 2014-12-26 09:25:35 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: interesting!! had the machine had any unclean power off events or the like that could have corrupted the leveldb?
22 2014-12-26 09:44:10 <Diablo-D3> [03:31:45] <midnightmagic> never really understood why the default is not to dump core in linux but anyway
23 2014-12-26 09:44:12 <Diablo-D3> disk space.
24 2014-12-26 09:45:59 <haakonn> hope it's ok to ask this here: UTXO is kept in memory - is this for performance reasons only? is it possible that storage tech advances (solid-state etc) will make it possible to move UTXO to disk in the future?
25 2014-12-26 09:49:44 <gmaxwell> haakonn: it is not kept in memory.
26 2014-12-26 09:49:49 <gmaxwell> Why did you believe it was?
27 2014-12-26 09:51:14 <gmaxwell> haakonn: ^
28 2014-12-26 09:52:09 <haakonn> gmaxwell:  oh! i was pretty sure i read about it back in the day, especially when MasterCoin was first developed and everyone was worried about UTXO bloat
29 2014-12-26 09:52:45 <Diablo-D3> all we need now is VisaCoin, AmexCoin, and DisCoin.
30 2014-12-26 09:53:32 <haakonn> I'm asking because tweetbit.org plan to add "tweets" as well as photos and videos to the blockchain, and they refuse to use OP_RETURN because they worry about propagation and exclusion by miners, so they essentially want to put videos etc into UTXO
31 2014-12-26 09:53:39 <gmaxwell> haakonn: Just because it isn't in ram doesn't mean it's size isn't critical: utxo size determines how much storage a full node needs. It also bounds the verification performance... e.g. if you're taking a 10ms seek against a slow near line disk for every txin your performance will be miserable.
32 2014-12-26 09:54:14 <gmaxwell> haakonn: man thats horrible. They're much more likely to be blocked by participants the worse they abuse the system.
33 2014-12-26 09:54:51 <gmaxwell> (it's also pointless and unworkable, since they'll go broke before getting even a single frame in, but whatever)
34 2014-12-26 09:54:55 <haakonn> gmaxwell:  yes, i guess it's less horrible than i thought, but it's bad. i spent yesterday trying to explain UTXO to him but they seem nonchalant
35 2014-12-26 09:56:18 <haakonn> they think video has "hurdles", but are optimistic about photos, voicemail etc
36 2014-12-26 09:56:23 <gmaxwell> haakonn: I don't know that its less bad than you're thinking, I mean our full node count is falling precipitiously already, in part due to how burdensome running a node is.  When we expose pruning to users it'll make a huge improvement (utxo set size is currently 550mb) but when people abuse the system for data storage the utxo size growth just becomes the same as blockchain grow, no improvement.
37 2014-12-26 09:58:41 <gmaxwell> haakonn: none of those things actually work. Current fees in the network are around $500 bucks a megabyte, and they'll only go up. Not to mention participants _will_ react to that kind of use by active filtering (esp since it creates increasd systemic risk, and not just wasteful resource consumption and during our full node storage requirements from quasi-log to linear)
38 2014-12-26 09:58:54 <haakonn> "The problem with OP_RETURN, is that it can be censored by being prune-able" - is what he told me
39 2014-12-26 09:59:41 <gmaxwell> uh huh what?
40 2014-12-26 09:59:50 <gmaxwell> Do you have any idea what he actually meant?
41 2014-12-26 10:00:07 <haakonn> not really he thinks pruning is censorship
42 2014-12-26 10:00:09 <gmaxwell> Does he know that nodes already will not return random data lookup queries for _anything_?
43 2014-12-26 10:00:53 <gmaxwell> It's externally indistinguishable if a node has pruned an unspendable utxo entry or not. A third party cannot detect it.
44 2014-12-26 10:01:24 <gmaxwell> 
ACTION gets really fed up with all the incompetent sleezebags that glom onto abusing bitcoin as their next great plan.

45 2014-12-26 10:02:28 <haakonn> well, looks like his efforts will fail, so i guess it's nothing to get worked up about :) thanks for all your answers
46 2014-12-26 10:03:32 <haakonn> he goes on about being "bloat-conscious" and "working with the community"
47 2014-12-26 10:04:11 <gmaxwell> yea, there have been two dozen other things, and they do fail and fall into obscurity. Though some have managed to put dozens of megabytes of unprunable junk into utxo set before going bankrupt which is unfortunate at ultimately reduces the decenteralization of bitcoin ever so much.
48 2014-12-26 10:05:00 <haakonn> annoying
49 2014-12-26 10:44:06 <sipa> haakonn: the point is that utxo data must be "in fast storage"; which may mean RAM or disk + caches or whatever
50 2014-12-26 10:44:30 <sipa> the faster accessible it can be, the faster blocks can propagate
51 2014-12-26 10:50:04 <Luke-Jr> faster, or less access required
52 2014-12-26 10:50:18 <Luke-Jr> ie, OP_RETURN has half the impact no matter what the speed
53 2014-12-26 10:51:39 <michagogo> fanquake: is the debian 7.4v7.7 the same as e.g. Ubuntu 12.04.4v12.04.5?
54 2014-12-26 10:52:34 <michagogo> If so, that means it's just a newer install image, as soon as you apt-get dist-upgrade on 12.04.4 you get 12.04.5
55 2014-12-26 11:02:20 <haakonn> sipa:  i see, that makes sense
56 2014-12-26 11:07:17 <midnightmagic> who went bankrupt..?
57 2014-12-26 11:07:24 <midnightmagic> (after spamming the bc?)
58 2014-12-26 11:10:45 <haakonn> midnightmagic:  not sure anybody did?
59 2014-12-26 11:14:58 <fanquake> michagogo I’ve just changed that because the current iso link is broken, and I can’t find a new link for 7.4. Functionally it makes no different to building either way.
60 2014-12-26 11:15:10 <fanquake> If you can find a working link for 7.4 I’ll change it back
61 2014-12-26 11:15:26 <midnightmagic> haakonn: gmaxwell mentioned about an hour ago that some douchebags have managed to spam dozens of megabytes into the blockchain before going bankrupt.
62 2014-12-26 11:15:54 <michagogo> fanquake: just wondering what it is, how it works
63 2014-12-26 11:16:17 <michagogo> If it's like Ubuntu's point releases it literally makes no difference
64 2014-12-26 11:16:56 <haakonn> midnightmagic:  ah yes. i don't think anybody actually went into bankcruptcy protection or anything like that, but rather they spammed the blockchain/utxo for a while before finally admitting to themselves that it was economically infeasible
65 2014-12-26 11:17:01 <fanquake> Sure. Except for the fact that you can nolonger download 7.4. (or atleast I can’t seem to find where to get it from)
66 2014-12-26 11:17:25 <midnightmagic> usually he's more precise than that with his language when he's mocking someone.
67 2014-12-26 11:17:45 <Luke-Jr> bankruptcy != bankruptcy protection AFAIK
68 2014-12-26 11:18:45 <haakonn> Luke-Jr:  true, but "bankruptcy" is a legal thing that you declare etc, afaik? i doubt anyone did that. but if you mean "bankcruptcy" as in "we ran out of money, oops", then that probably happened
69 2014-12-26 11:19:17 <Luke-Jr> I'd mean it as the latter, at least.
70 2014-12-26 11:20:43 <haakonn> bankruptcy*
71 2014-12-26 11:21:58 <haakonn> (not many english words have 2 series of 3 consonants, but "bankruptcy" is certainly one of them)
72 2014-12-26 11:21:58 <Luke-Jr> wow. how many people knew about gdb -tui?
73 2014-12-26 11:22:37 <Luke-Jr> this is pretty neat
74 2014-12-26 11:23:09 <wumpus> I knew about it, but agree that it is neat
75 2014-12-26 11:24:38 <Luke-Jr> no longer do I need to guess line numbers with 'lis' :D
76 2014-12-26 11:26:48 <midnightmagic> schmuck is basically english now
77 2014-12-26 11:27:02 <midnightmagic> oh, 2 series.
78 2014-12-26 13:26:18 <dzyk> hi
79 2014-12-26 13:26:25 <dzyk> i need help with pycoin
80 2014-12-26 13:37:31 <dzyk> hi
81 2014-12-26 13:37:50 <dzyk> i need python implementation for bitcoin
82 2014-12-26 14:11:31 <linux> hi i have registered on bitcoin foundation, do i have any access to a dev pool ?
83 2014-12-26 14:11:42 <linux> can i for example vote for anything new ?
84 2014-12-26 14:12:54 <Luke-Jr> linux: off-topic, #bitcoin
85 2014-12-26 14:22:28 <linux> where can i see te dev progress on bitcoin ?https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin here is not much work to see
86 2014-12-26 14:23:24 <haakonn> check latest commits to master in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master, or check activity in pull requests, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls
87 2014-12-26 14:23:45 <haakonn> and read the bitcoin-development mailing lists if you are interested
88 2014-12-26 14:23:46 <teward> linux: um... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master is the commits list, i see a lot of activity in the past 2 weeks
89 2014-12-26 14:23:56 <teward> wow i'm lagging horridly >.>
90 2014-12-26 14:24:24 <linux> thanks